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Hatchbacks Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...
894 messages, Last post on Nov 12, 2008 at 6:09 PM
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Replying to: riopelle (Jun 30, 2004 5:40 am) |
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I didn't link the story because I am never quite sure about the link rules on Edmunds. The story is on the front page of the New York Times website (nytimes.com), and CNN picked it up as well. Hope that helps. |
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mutarjim- The VR6 is kind of a unique package, and I think its two closest competitors are the 1.8T and the R32. The VR6 is luxurious, and has a V6, something that can't be said with any other hatchback in its price range. If you want a hatchback with the unique characteristics of the VR6, your choices are pretty limited. I love hatchbacks, I think its a great car. On the other hand... The performance of the VR6 is probably among the lowest of the cars I listed in a previous post (although significantly faster than the Si in a straight line). An RSX-S is comparably fast in a straight line, and a better handler. Between the cheap rear suspension setup, the heavy VR6 in front, and 300 more pounds than the Si has to carry (3036 vs. 2782), the VR6 really isn't a top handler. Throw the reliability card in, and it's kind of a tough call. That said, it _is_ fast, rides well, nice wheels, great interior, tons of standard features, looks great, and has a ton of torque. In addition, you paid $8,000 more than I did for my Si ($15,980). That is more than a bit more money. The list price is not quite accurate when it comes to the new Si. That said, I did not get side airbags. $8000 +$800 extra in tax and license +premium gas +lower gas mileage (26/30 vs. 21/30) adds up to a lot of money. I think that $17,000 is a more realistic price for the Si right now though. Like I said, you drive a _GREAT_ car, no doubt about it - I can't knock the package, it only suffers when compared to a car that gives you more for your dollar. But if you break it down into numbers, it's a pretty poor value. blueiedgod- The $3400 RevHard turbo kit would make the Civic Si _mucH_ faster than the VR6. People are putting 265 at the wheels with that kit. One guy (on the 02+ Civic Si board) is running 13.3 on stock tires and transmission w/ no LSD. |
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I got my GTI 1.8t in 2002 for 19k and some change. You can put on a $300 Upsolute chip to bump HP up to ~210 and a rear swaybar for $250 to cure the body roll problem. I like the VR6 but I don't think it is worth the extra money over the 1.8t. The data I've seen indicates the the 1.8t GTI easily outsells the VR6. The thing that sets the GTI apart from all of the Japanese competition is that it is the best all around car. For example compared to the RSX base its got more utility, better ride, and more safety equipment. About the reliability. Yes VW is ranked very low but in its defense I would say that one, the things that break are usually the minor things such as armrest latches, window regs, etc. The basic mechanicals of the engine, transmissions, body hardware, and chasis are pretty stout. The cars feels more substantial than just about any car its size and does impart a degree of solidity in the vein of BMW products. Just slam a door shut and you can hear the difference. In two years/4 months of ownership I have spent a total of five hours at the dealership one time for a window reg and the ignition coils replacement and another time for a persistent warning light. One trip to the dealer every 14 months does not seem excessive to me. I've actually had more problems with my aftermarket Panasonic CD changer than with the car itself. The best things about the SI are it implied reliability, the shifter, the seats, hatchback versatility and the fact that you can get them below invoice. If you seek more I would look elsewhere. Someone claimed a $3k supercharger for the SI will result in low to mid 13's. So the SI would be faster than a 227hp WRX? Where is the proof? What would happed to the clutch and those small 15" tires(slipping) even if you could produce enough horsepower for those times. And the torque steer? |
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I like the VR6 but I don't think it is worth the extra money over the 1.8t. The data I've seen indicates the the 1.8t GTI easily outsells the VR6. I agree. The thing that sets the GTI apart from all of the Japanese competition is that it is the best all around car. For example compared to the RSX base its got more utility, better ride, and more safety equipment. True, but I will take the RSX handling and shifting over the GTI, and in this type of car, I consider those things more important. A sports coupe isn't really supposed to be all that practical, so utility and ride aren't big factors (IMO). Safety equipment is always good, I'm not going to knock that. But the crash tests are very similar. About the reliability. Yes VW is ranked very low but in its defense I would say that one, the things that break are usually the minor things such as armrest latches, window regs, etc. The basic mechanicals of the engine, transmissions, body hardware, and chasis are pretty stout. The cars feels more substantial than just about any car its size and does impart a degree of solidity in the vein of BMW products. Just slam a door shut and you can hear the difference. There is a thread on this board about VW reliability, and I think it is safe to say that having lots of minor things failing is just as bad as a single major. Many people have become very turned off to VWs from their reliability experiences. The car does have a very nice feel to it, a lot of that comes from extra weight. In two years/4 months of ownership I have spent a total of five hours at the dealership one time for a window reg and the ignition coils replacement and another time for a persistent warning light. One trip to the dealer every 14 months does not seem excessive to me. I've actually had more problems with my aftermarket Panasonic CD changer than with the car itself. That sounds fantastic. If the cars were equal in reliability and price, I would probably pick the 1.8T over my Si. Unfortunately, your experience doesn't seem to be as common as it should be. The best things about the SI are it implied reliability, the shifter, the seats, hatchback versatility and the fact that you can get them below invoice. If you seek more I would look elsewhere. So what is better about the GTI? It feels more solid? Acceleration - 1.8t Handling - Si Utility - Even Ride - 1.8T Safety - Even Shifter - Si Seats - Si Tires - 1.8t What am I missing? Looks even, and then you factor in the price and relibility, and the Si comes out on top. I tried to be fair, if you have anything to add, go ahead. Someone claimed a $3k supercharger for the SI will result in low to mid 13's. So the SI would be faster than a 227hp WRX? Where is the proof? What would happed to the clutch and those small 15" tires(slipping) even if you could produce enough horsepower for those times. And the torque steer? Several videos and timeslips for this are posted on a large EP hatch related board. A board just for the EP HATCH. To be honest, I'm kind of in disbelief myself, but it's real. I'm sure that clutch isn't long for this world, and the Si tires definitely suck. I'm not a big fan of huge power FWD cars, the power is useless in corners - I'm sure it would still be a lot of fun to drive though. BTW - the Revhard powered Si produces 265 whp, the WRX produces 185 whp or something.
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Replying to: muffin_man (Jul 01, 2004 3:11 pm) Acceleration - 1.8t Handling - Si Utility - Even Ride - 1.8T Safety - Even Shifter - Si Seats - Si Tires - 1.8t What am I missing? Looks even, and then you factor in the price and relibility, and the Si comes out on top. I tried to be fair, if you have anything to add, go ahead. Personally, I don't want to call it an "intangible", but you could put me behind the wheel of a dozen different cars and I can tell you which continent they came from. My personal preference is for European, which generally means German. There's just something about it. If I had to narrow it down, I'd say its the suspension setup, plus the steering and braking rates. My wife thought I was just a nutcase, but after I talked her into buying an Audi several years ago, within two years she would come back from a busines trip where she had a "traditional" car as her rental vehicle and curse them up one side and down the other for how "stupid/bad" they were set up. Having found this personal preference, I no longer even bother to consider products like the Civic. Yeah, I owned a Honda many (many, many) moons ago, and it was...a car. Its also been almost a decade since my beloved VW Sirocco went away...and I still miss that darn car. I'd suggest driving both vehicles and comparing the amount of "dead" slack in the steering wheels, and then test-driving an even higher-end German vehicle, such as a BMW to learn just how precise a vehicle's steering system can be. You actually have to learn to drive differently when a 1/4" shift in the steering wheel is responded to by the car as steering input: it takes greater discipline, which ultimately means you have more control. If this isn't for you, it isn't for you. Feel free driving those cars who purposefully ignore small inputs because its designer intended it to be driven by Aunt Mabel who can't keep her hands still while driving. -hh |
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Personally, I don't want to call it an "intangible", but you could put me behind the wheel of a dozen different cars and I can tell you which continent they came from. My personal preference is for European, which generally means German. My personal preference are for car that aren't stuffed full of extra weight. A VW-specialty. There are some great German cars, but VW doesn't make any of them. (Audi excluded) There's just something about it. If I had to narrow it down, I'd say its the suspension setup, plus the steering and braking rates. Suspension setup? The GTI has the crappiest rear-suspension setup in the segment. The excess weight of the GTI definitely doesn't make it steer or brake any better My wife thought I was just a nutcase, but after I talked her into buying an Audi several years ago, within two years she would come back from a busines trip where she had a "traditional" car as her rental vehicle and curse them up one side and down the other for how "stupid/bad" they were set up. What Audi does she have, what car did she rent? What set up didn't she like? This anecdote is too vague to be useful here. Having found this personal preference, I no longer even bother to consider products like the Civic. Yeah, I owned a Honda many (many, many) moons ago, and it was...a car. Its also been almost a decade since my beloved VW Sirocco went away...and I still miss that darn car. That's fine, but do you drive a GTI now? I'm not going to claim that the Si is the best car in the world, or in the segment, only that it is better than the GTI, despite its unimaginably valuable German roots. I'd suggest driving both vehicles and comparing the amount of "dead" slack in the steering wheels, and then test-driving an even higher-end German vehicle, such as a BMW to learn just how precise a vehicle's steering system can be. You actually have to learn to drive differently when a 1/4" shift in the steering wheel is responded to by the car as steering input: it takes greater discipline, which ultimately means you have more control. I have to laugh because the intangibles you speak of are hardly represented in the GTI. If it is so great, why advise me to go try a BMW? If this isn't for you, it isn't for you. Feel free driving those cars who purposefully ignore small inputs because its designer intended it to be driven by Aunt Mabel who can't keep her hands still while driving. The Si isn't available with an automatic, the 1.8t is. Overweight, unsupportive leather seats, rear torsion beam - funny you should mention Aunt Mabel, because the GTI is the Buick of the segment. quote from Sportcompactcarweb: (re: Si) As expected, the areas involving driver input received special consideration from Honda engineering. A first for U.S. Honda models is the use of Electrical Power Steering, eliminating the need for a power-robbing and weighty pneumatic pump. Honda cites a 2-percent fuel savings with EPS, and we can cite exquisite steering feel, no matter the vehicle's speed. Four-wheel disc brakes feature standard ABS and electronic brake distribution, and on every occasion they were needed, they delivered. Lane discipline in Germany is a thing of the past, and on several ocassions we were required to stomp the brake pedal hard as slower traffic obliviously pulled into the left lane, and with no evident brake fade. What do they say about the GTI 1.8t? Best Feature: Power. In a way, it's good the stock tires are so bad. You'll want to replace them anyway, and the GTI's big wad of turbocharged torque will help you destroy them. Worst Feature: The suspension is so soft and wallowy, we would have sworn the GTI was 300 lb heavier than it really is. The ride quality, of course, is excellent. First three things we'd modify 1: The entire suspension Leave no stone unturned. Springs, shocks, anti-roll bars, bushings, tires. Look for a kit that has the first three or four tuned together; there are plenty of them. This chassis can be made to handle well if you try.
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Replying to: muffin_man (Jul 01, 2004 3:11 pm) These aren't sports coupes, they're hatchbacks. Hatchbacks are by nature practical and practicality is an obvious consideration, as is ride and utility along with performance, quality ect, ect. If you're looking for sport coupes your in the wrong forum.. The reliability stats are based on old data. There was a preponderance of failures from window regulators to ignition coilpacks to mass airflow sensors. These are vendor supplied and the vendors have been dealt with (fired). I don't think you'll see a repeat performance of these high failure rates in the future. |
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Replying to: muffin_man (Jul 02, 2004 8:59 am) If you haven't noticed, pretty much all cars are laden down pretty heavily: my VW Sirocco weighed 2300lbs, but I wouldn't want to have an accident in it...by today's standards, its a thin tin can. Suspension setup? The GTI has the crappiest rear-suspension setup in the segment. On a FWD, the rear's setup isn't one of the highest priorities. And even for RWD, there are things that talk a good game on paper, but don't generally make for a big difference 95% of the time. For example, didn't the Chevy Corvette lack a fully independant rear for many years? The excess weight of the GTI definitely doesn't make it steer or brake any better Yes, there have been a ton of reviews that accuse the GTI of being a "pig", and I also agree that its front end does plow with the weight distribution of the VR6 configuration. However, neither gross weight nor brakes had anything to do with what I was talking about when I was referring to steering rates and braking rates: perhaps you actually enjoy overboosted and numb steering and brakes that lock up as soon as you touch them, but I do not. YMMV. What Audi does she have, what car did she rent? What set up didn't she like? This anecdote is too vague to be useful here. That car was a 1990 Audi 80, which had replaced a 1985 Ford Tempo. And my "rental car" anecdote was not one vehicle once upon a time, but an aggregate experience across a broad cross section: Oldsmobiles, Toyotas, a couple of SUV's (Minneapolis in the winter), probably some Lumina's and Neon's too...normal fleet stuff. And because I know exactly what she's talking about and because I do even more business travel than she does, I can add my firsthand experience, which is pretty much every GM, Ford, Chryster, Toyota, Mitsu, Honda, Kia and whatever else that has fleet sales in the USA that's been used by Hertz, Avis, National, Dollar, and Alamo over the past decade. And to reiterate what I'm specifically talking about here are things like overboosted power brakes and steering systems with deadspots that are frustratingly huge. YMMV, but I prefer a total holistic setup that is more linear on its brakes than what is typical on most GM, Ford, Toyota & Honda products today, as well as a directional control system where I can actually give it 1/4" inputs that the vehicle will accept as inputs instead of driver noise and ignore. That's fine, but do you drive a GTI now? No, but I did very seriously consider the GTI in 2002 and test-drove it several times before buying another product. I'll agree that its not a Corrado, but that VW was a disappointment to me too. I'm not going to claim that the Si is the best car in the world... Yes you are. We all have our biases. I have to laugh because the intangibles you speak of are hardly represented in the GTI. If it is so great, why advise me to go try a BMW? Because its petty subtle and is easy for someone who has not experienced it to overlook it. Since BMW is even more extreme in this regards, it should be more noticable to an objective individual who is sincerely looking to find for themselves what I'm talking about. The Si isn't available with an automatic, the 1.8t is. Overweight, unsupportive leather seats, rear torsion beam Gosh, my 911 has leather seats that people complain about...and a rear torsion beam suspension. But sorry, it can't qualify as a real sports car on M&M's checklist. quote from Sportcompactcarweb Sorry, but I don't really care what they have to say, because they're wrong. Here's but one example of a lie: Lane discipline in Germany is a thing of the past... I've done over 1000km on German roads within the past twelve months alone, and IMNSHO, the lane discipline remains quite excellent. If this writer has any grief, its not near the Wolfsburg factory, or probably any other 'Bahn in the west. Perhaps he was thinking of Italy's Autostrada?  My next trip back to Germany is in less than 90 days, so I'll let you know if anything has changed for the worse, but I really doubt it. FYI, the A6Q Avant TDI is a really sweet rental car, if you can bag one. -hh |
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I'd have to say that the absolute worst rental car that I've had in recent memory was a Ford Mustang 5.0 that I had in Florida this past winter. Absolutely an abomination in every way. -hh |
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