Last post on Jul 18, 2001 at 7:32 PM
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#15 of 44 ingtonge18
Feb 19, 2001 (8:13 am)
the protege and elantra I was thinking about where the 5 door hatchbacks.
#16 of 44 I can't ignore Ingtone18
Feb 19, 2001 (10:08 am)
Sorry, can't ingnore him because he 's comparing an LX which only comes in a sedan form to my Civic Hatchback that weighs 2258lbs. The LX sedan weighs over 2400lbs.. Plus he doesn't understand that I said I have no power steering in my '97 DX HB. That means my car puts down more HP (about 2-3hp) at the wheels than an LX. I hope he knows the difference between whp and bhp.
Anyway, Autoweek and Automobile both tested the '97 Civic DX HB in 8.7s and 9.0 respectively in 0-60. They said that it was almost as fast as the EX. Yes, the LX has always been 9.3-9.5 but there is almost a 200lb difference between the two, "minus" powersteering in mine which adds power.. A couple of hundred pounds seriously hurts acceleration in these light cars that have low torque. When my 200lb brother is in my car, I can feel right away my car is slower.
And what's a Prizm have to do with a Corolla? The new Prizms have Chevy engines, not like the old ones that had Toyota ones. I 'm not sure what the 0-60 times are on the new Corolla (125hp) but I don't think they 're below 9.0 sec.
I also didn't say the Corolla was slow. I think it faired very well. I only raced him because he had a big mouth and was saying how fast his car was. Let's face it, whether you own a Corolla, Civic, or Protege, you shouldn't go around telling people you have a fast car. This guy wanted to race me when I took my GSR to work a few months ago. I laughed, then I let him pass me on the highway on the way home, it wasn't worth my time. A few weeks later when I drove the Civic in and ran into him I told him this 'd be a better match for his "fast" Corolla. My $12.5K car (new in '97) didn't disappoint me and dusted his $15.8K (this is what he paid, I don't know what sticker is, but my sticker was a little higher as well) Corolla, not by a lot but nevertheless. I honestly thought in the beginning that he 'd beat me and was worried about keeping up. Of course having better tires than him also helped me where he probably didn't have the confidence on the high speeds nor the agility that my car has with wider tires (195-60 HR tires vs. 185-65SR factory ones), switching lanes fast, etc.
Ingtone18: are you 18yrs old? You have a lot to learn..
Feb 19, 2001 (10:21 am)
The Protege comes in a hatchback? Are you sure? Gotta go do some research.. I thought the only hatchbacks left out there are the Integra, Focus, and VW Golf/GTI (I think the Daewoo has a little one too).
#18 of 44 only1harry
Feb 19, 2001 (10:25 am)
what's the difference between whp and bhp--both are refering to horsepower. I often see this terms.
#19 of 44 only1harry
Feb 19, 2001 (10:37 am)
what's the difference between whp and bhp--both are refering to horsepower. I often see this terms.
Feb 19, 2001 (10:52 pm)
Sorry, you need to learn a bit more about cars. I suggest reading articles a bit more closely. The reason I mentioned the Prizm is because, imagine that, it's a Toyota Corolla with a Chevy badge. They are completely identical (aside from interior styling and rear tailights) and are even built in the same NUMMI plant in California. I don't know why you ever thought the Prizm had a Chevy engine, but it doesn't. It shares the Toyota 1.8 liter DOHC 16 valve 4 cylinder with VVT and 125 hp (Chevy doesn't even build an engine with those credentials). As for the Protege, if you had been reading the proper info you would know that a Protege 5-door hatch called the Protege 5 is coming out this summer. If you had read my message, you would see that the Civic LX does not weigh over 2400 pounds and the difference in weight between your car and the LX is only 127#, not almost 200. As for you beating your coworker, here's a thought: Did you take into account AC usage? If you had the AC off and he had it on, than you could have easily beat him, as AC saps power dramatically but most people don't think to turn it off for the extra power. I know the Civic hatch was the second fastest Civic behind the EX coupe, but the numbers still stand that I documented here: 8.3 seconds will always beat 8.7-9.0, no getting around that other than poor driving on his part. I'm fully aware of whp. It's the hp measureable at the wheels, which takes into account friction of the transmission, CV joints, differential, and other things. And no I'm not 18, I'm 21, but apparently my knowledge already surpasses yours.
Feb 22, 2001 (10:44 am)
I 've been racing (competition, auto-x) for years and I 'm 14yrs older than you. If you think your knowledge surpasses mine, I feel sorry for you. You seem to rely a lot on what magazines write. yeah all the mags tested the Type-R 0-60 in 6.8-7s and 1/4 mi. in 15-15.2. My brother goes out in the track and does 14.8. My friend did a 14.59 with his stock ITR. Motortrend, C&D and R&T got hit with so many letters that they retested the Type-R (and S2000) and said they realized they had to launch at higher RPMs to get better accel. times, duh, I don't trust any of these drivers.. They retested the ITR at 6.2s and 14.8 in the 1/4 and the S2000 they got it down to 5-5.3s from 5.5-5.7. They also make many mistakes regarding suspension and engine components and generalize a lot. Don't believe everything they say.. and they do make mistakes. Just a year ago all the major car mags were saying that the Prizm was getting a GM engine 1.9L for '01 and critisized that.. Now I guess they decided to keep the Toyota engine after all, or the car mags had gotten some erroneous information from someone on the "inside" or believe rumors people spread. That's just one example. Also if you read the Edmunds review under New Cars of the Prizm, they say it's way too expensive and can be nearly $20K with options. Another mistake (I think) Edmunds made is that they list is as having 120hp.. They ALL make mistakes now and then. I used to read every imaginable car magazine around and had way too many subscriptions.. Now I just go from what I experience in real life. Yeah, you bring a Corolla or Prizm to the auto-x races, and watch my little Civic HB kick their butt. HP and #s don't mean crap under different circuimstances.
Like I said, you got a lot to learn.
PS. No he didn't have the AC on, it was 50deg. out.. Where did you see the Corolla 0-60 in 8.3s?
I just saw an Autoweek article while I was getting an oil change, and they had they tested the Civic EX coupe 5-sp. in 8.3s 0-60! That's a big difference from C&D's 9s.. just goes to show you how much they can vary plus there are factors like altitude, temp and barometric pressure..
Feb 22, 2001 (3:15 pm)
'whp' and 'bhp' are indeed terms for horsepower.
'whp' is the horsepower at the wheel, that is, the horsepower which is actually moving your car (actually, torque is what is actually accelerating your car; in fact, torque is what is actually measured when people place their car on what is called a chassis dynometer. The horsepower is calculated based on the measured torque and the rpm it occurs at. But that's a whole 'nother discussion).
'bhp' stands for brake horsepower. No, it is not the horsepower measured at the brake. Maybe one of our resident mathematicians can tell you why it is called 'brake' horsepower. Anyway, it is the amount of power the engine is making as measured at the crankshaft. This is the rating you will typically see from the manufacturer. Like in the examples above, when somebody says the ITR has 195 hp, that is the horsepower the factory rates the car at and is measured at the crank.
'whp' will ALWAYS be less than 'bhp', usually by around 15-20%. This is because when the power is measured at the crankshaft, the frictional losses in the drivetrain (transmission, driveshaft, differential) are not taken into account. Also, such accesories as the power steering pump are not attached, which further reduce the 'bhp'. Now, why don't the manufacturers rate their car by the 'whp' rather than the 'bhp'? Well, to use the ITR example above, not all ITR's will have the same frictional losses in the drivetrain. Some ITR's may measure 160hp at the wheels, some may measure 170. Rating the cars by what the motor makes at the crank is probably more consistent.
I hope this helps.
Feb 22, 2001 (9:47 pm)
I don't surmise my knowledge surpasses yours as far as racing, but nor do I care. The problem I have is that you try to make yourself sound knowledgeable about cars and yet you can't get all the facts straight. If someone wants to claim to be so much more knowledgeable about cars than I am, I at least expect them to make true statements, not blame mistakes on rumors they read. First of all, I never heard any rumors concerning a GM 1.9 engine going into the Prizm. You must be thinking of Saturn as thats the only GM company that uses a 1.9 liter 4 banger. In fact, did you know the Prizm will be dead after the 2002 model year? What you misread was that the Prizm would be replaced by another car that MIGHT be powered by a GM engine. Car mags do print rumors but it is only speculation; they do not present it as fact. Try not to read so much truth into their speculations next time. At any rate, I still don't understand why you are arguing with me over the numbers for the Prizm and asking "where did you see 8.3 sec for the Corolla?". C&D has tested 2 Prizms. They tested a 98 model with a stick and the 120 hp engine and it went from 0-60 in 8.5 sec. Than they tested a 2000 Prizm with a stick and the 125 hp engine and it went from 0-60 in 8.3 sec. It was tied with the Elantra as the fastest economy sedan out of 13 cars (comparison test). These numbers are good for the Corolla as well because they are completely identical! C&D has never tested a Civic EX in the 9s. Where are you getting your info?? The November issue of C&D tested the '01 Civic EX coupe at 8.4 sec from 0-60. You may have more years on me, but your real life experiences obviously don't help you get the facts straight. I don't just rely on car mags for all my info and I do realize they can make mistakes. I back everything they say up with the manafacturer's own website and other written sources. All I ask is that you actually research what you post instead of posting false information. Curiously, does your friend have the same background in racing? It's unfair to compare someone who has race driving skills with someone who doesn't. It's obvious that if your car was only outgunned by 0.5 of a second that your driving skills would more than make up for it.
#24 of 44 back to the topic...
Feb 25, 2001 (12:28 pm)
anyone know if the Civic Type R will actually make it's way to the U.S.??