Last post on May 08, 2012 at 6:26 PM
You are in the Jaguar S-Type
What is this discussion about?
Jaguar S-Type, Sedan
#829 of 1064 Re: Dead S-type [deadstype]
Aug 02, 2005 (1:08 pm)
I find your situation a bit difficult to fully comprehend.
I can certainly believe that a blown engine at 29,000 miles is frustrating. In any car.
And yet, the 2001 Jag warrantee was for 4 years (as I recall, or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first). Not 5 years. Or 6. Or 7. I believe that there are extended warrantees available, if the added insurance / peace of mind is worth it.
Are you suggesting that this 4 year limit on a Jag warrantee is merely a suggestion? And if a major issue surfaces beyond that limit, Jaguar should just fix it for you, when they have no legal requirement to do so?
You do not have $13,000 to spend on fixing the 2001 Jag, yet you were a few months away from buying a new 2006 Jag? (Setting aside the fact that when I was 21 & in college, I could barely afford an 8 year old VW, let alone anything even approaching my “Dream Car”.) How exactly can that be? Trading in a 2001 on a 2006 would likely have required a good sized bunch of cash?
I mean no disrespect and I do not mean to be condescending here, but if you cannot afford a major repair on the 2001 S-Type, how could you afford to purchase a 2006?
I am a Jaguar Fan, and nearly purchased an S-Type R 6 months ago. I have rented 4 or 5 S-Types and XJs over the years. And I could likely “afford” one, by making a few Lifestyle Changes. But I certainly cannot afford the risk of having such a complex & expensive (to buy & to repair) car as these Jags without a warrantee. With the labor rates charged for diagnosis as well as parts and labor to repair or replace problems, it seems the possible out-of-pocket expense would certainly hit my budget very hard, indeed. (I did own both a 2000 and a 2003 Lincoln LS - brother under the skin to the S-Type Jag – and traded each before the warrantee expired.)
I wish I could offer real assistance, but I see no recourse for you. If they were refusing repair on a vehicle still covered under warrantee, perhaps there would be legal recourse available to you. Here, ‘out of warrantee’ means that I don’t see where Jaguar or your dealer could be under any obligation to do anything.
The dealer, if you have a long standing sales and service relationship – and if they value you as a current and potential future customer, might lobby on your behalf to Jaguar USA. But again, I see no other reason for them to take any action. Certainly no reason for them to offer to perform thousands of dollars worth of work that Jaguar is not obligated to reimburse the dealer for.
Perhaps I am missing something here . .
Still hoping to buy my Dream Car – someday . .
#830 of 1064 Re: Dead S-type [rayainsw]
Aug 02, 2005 (6:53 pm)
Well I see what you are saying and here are my grounds for my complaint. Things go wrong with cars, its just understood. And it is also understood that a car's engine blowing at 29,000 miles is ubsurd. I have had every scheduled maintenance through Jaguar and then some. And you are right the warranty is up, I will not dispute that. And I am not coming to Jaguar much later, or even a year later just months, not even a 1,000 miles after my warranty was up, and I am still way under the mileage allowed for the warranty, but I'll agree the time came first before the miles, and my warranty is expired. Now put the warranty aside, under law, and it's a stretch anybody that is a licensed business and sells products owes reasonable care to their customers. Warranty or not, this is a very unreasonable repair, on top of that Jaguar can't diagnos it or its cause. Therefore it is obviously a defect in the automobile. And if you do some research like I have since this has happened, I am not the first with this problem. The law protects consumers from unreasonable manufacturer defects, which this is. I am not asking them to fix my A/C that broke after warranty, or a 300 dollar stereo, or the tilt on my steering wheel, the car died, the ultimate thing that can go wrong with a car. That being said most cars now way outlast 100,000 miles some almost hit 200,000. So a consumer can expect that with the care needed to maintain a car it should last (I'd say reasonably 100,000, but) certainly far beyond 29,000. And on that basis I think Jaguar should step up to the plate realizing this is a unusual problem and obviously not my fault. First off it is customer service. Since researching I have met hundreds of people who have given me great advice and support, your the first to be negative, but thats fine, maybe I wasn't clear to you or you just haven't been in this boat and hopefully will never be. But according to other owners with similar problems, other manufacturers as people have told me has happened to them have stepped up to correct problems. Someone I met in a forum owned a Lexus that was a little over 1 year out of warranty when the engine blew at less than 50,000 miles. Lexus replaced it no problem, they admitted they owed their customers the quality and reliability they paid for, and this was an excessive repair. That is customer service, and I think that is what is seperating other manufacturers from Jaguar if you do your research. So hopefully they will realize they want a level of customer satisfaction and they will not stand for the reputation of producing cars that leave their customers in trouble after 29,000 miles. Maybe not, but at least I will make some people think twice and do some research before spending that kind of money on a high caliber car.
Now as for buying a new 2006, I don't see where you don't realize why I won't and can't pay 13,000 for a new engine but would buy a new '06. Well it doesn't take a finance major, but lets figure this out. First off, I don't have 13,000 cash, that would take me using tuition money. But I purchased my Jaguar S-type 4.0 at say "x" dollars and when I bought it I put very little down, so lets say my monthly payment was "y." And a new Jaguar S-type is still "x" just like a new one was when I bought mine, and on top of that interest rates are lower now, so right off the bat I am at the same car payment or even lower. On top off that assuming when my Jaguar still ran, I have say $15,000 in equity in it. So subtract $15,000 from lets say a new '06 is $50,000 thats $35,000. So regardless of financing $50,000 in 2001 or financing $50,000 in 2005 payments are the same, But now with my trade in and $15,000 in equity I am only financing say $35,000. So I will not have to pay a lump sum or put down more cash, and in fact my payments will be 20-30% less than what I am paying now since I will be financing for an additional 48 months and will have a car with equity to put down. If you need any other financial tips I am happy to help you out. Maybe you could afford that dream car, pay a car off, gain equity, and then you can move up a class in vehicles. It's the american way.
#831 of 1064 Re: Dead S-type [deadstype]
Aug 02, 2005 (6:59 pm)
And also. Are you a bar licensed Lawyer. I am not either, I am just still in law school though, and at least in my state they actually do have a legal obligation to correct defects, and since they sell in my state they need to meet are statutory requirements. The law protects and strongly favors consumers over corporations. The law protects consumers from unreasonable repairs needed because of defect. My situation fits. Especially just after warranty expiration and such low mileage. Under the law, I have a right to expect if I take car of it, a car will last a reasonable amount of time, now each cae would define reasonable, but certainly a lot longer than 29,000 miles. And a new engine is not a reasonably forseeable repair at that mileage.
#832 of 1064 Re: Dead S-type [deadstype]
Aug 02, 2005 (7:13 pm)
If you have a good relationship with the dealer, there are such things as "after warranty adjustments," which can help in cases like this. Ray made reference to just such a thing.
I keep cars forever, but was able to get an AWA on my hydraulic cooling fan (on a Lincoln LS, not a Jag, but they're very similar) which failed shortly after the warranty ran out. The dealer made it quite clear that he wasn't interested in submitting the thing unless there was follow-on business to make it worthwhile. I discussed it with him carefully, and got more than half of it paid for. What kind of relationship do you have with your dealer? Have you discussed splitting it, or do you want/demand the whole enchilada?
If you want to blow off the dealer (which I tend toward on a regular basis), you've got to accept the downside. If you run to him every time the ashtray needs to be emptied & pay accordingly, he'll pony up the paperwork hassle involved in replacing an engine. If you're like me and only show up when major things are broken. . .
That said, I'm still intrigued by the numbers involved in paying for the '06 S type. You use X's & Y's freely, as do most of us in the math world (I'm an engineer), but it might make sense to put in real numbers. I'm thinking it wouldn't take too many of those payments for the new car to pay off the repair on the old one -- then you go for the '07 (or '08), plus which your trade-in has a new engine. Plus which, the value of a used S type, even with an engine that works, isn't anything to write home about.
Maybe I'm missing something.
#833 of 1064 Re: Dead S-type [cdnpinhead]
Aug 03, 2005 (7:37 am)
Well I have a great relationship with the dealer, I would have planned to by Jags from them for the rest of my life. And I have never asked them for a thing and wouldn't do it if its something less or something that reasonably went wrong. But the fact is it is very very unreasonable for an engine to die at 29,000 miles and its not just a small repair of a couple hundred or a couple thousand, the entire engine needs to be replaced and it will be 13,000. I still don't understand why you don't get the math, go to a dealership they might be able to explain it to you. You are right a couple months, well actually several months, in excess of a year it would take those payments to add up to $13,000, and then I could fix it, but then I have no car for over a year, and when it is fixed it is a year older and worth even less. But the bottom line is a new s-type is still 50 grand like an '01 s-type was so my payments will be the same, but assuming before my car died, I could have traded it in for 15 grand, I had already spoken to them about it when I looked at new ones, or I could sell it privatly for close to 20 grand. My car is paid for, and I can afford the monthly payments of a new one, but not 13,000 at once, so what do I drive till then? I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Forget if I was to even trade in my car, payments on a new S-type today are the same as they wer in '01. So I don't see why you are saying I can afford to buy a new Jag. But can't afford 13,000 cash to put into a car that will then make it worth only 15,000 to me so I really only net 2,000. I can afford several hundred dollars a month car payment, but do not have 13,000 laying around for a unreasonable repair. 13,000 is well over a years worth of car payments, so you want me to save that money each month, walk for the next 14 to 15 months and then repiar my car which is then 5 years old and worth even less. This doesn't make sense to me, maybe I am missing something. But in any event I will not be buying a new Jaguar right now, first off would I want or anybody else to buy a car that might die at 28,000 miles, or would you want to work with a company that doesn't take care of people in a rare case like this. They are the ones who are getting a reputation of faulty vehicles. I am not asking them to fix a little thing. The car died. Put yourself in my situation, I don't even see what anew '06 has to do with this. You buy an expensive car, you take care of it and have every service done through Jaguar, you keep low miles on the car and just 3 months after warranty, you don't have just a little problem, but your car is useless and needs pretty much the biggest repair a car could ever face, a new engine, that is pretty much the entire car. Jaguar should repair this because it is obviously a defect in the car, they cannot even say what caused it. And other manufacturers have a reputation of helping out customers when it was their vehicle that was defective regardless of warranty. I met a gentlemen since I have been researching this who had my same situation with a lexus, Lexus didn't even hesitate to fix it, it was obvious that this was an odd and excesive problem and wasn't the drivers fault, they repaired it outside of warranty over a year. I am not asking for the repair of a minor problem, My car is totally dead. Would you be fine with it if you bought one of the highest quality cars, and it died at 29,000 miles. The fact is this is a ridiculous problem, and from the research I have done Jaguar's reputation isn't as good as I thought it was, lots of other people have had problems like mine or different within weeks or months of a warranty expiring. Picture this you have new home built, builders typically give a 1 year warranty, everything is right with the house and a day after 1 year it crumbles to the ground, not a small repair,. but not liveable anymore. Would you not feel as if the home builder owed you the quality you payed hundreds of thousands of dollars for. Forget about home insurance, car insurance unfortunately doesn't cover repairs. The bottom line is a manufacturer of anything, a car, a house, etc. owes its customers a certain level of quality, by law also, but just by common customer service. If it was a small repair I'd see where they'd say you know we can't do anything about, fine i'll dish out the couple hundred bucks, But nobody can tell me they expect their car or could even believe that a perfectly maintained car of that caliber will die at 29,000 miles.
#834 of 1064 Re: Dead S-type [deadstype]
Aug 03, 2005 (8:01 am)
OK. I think I understand your situation better.
Certainly too bad about the engine.
I agree. You (and most other people) should avoid any future Jaguar involvement.
One hopes the tone that comes through in your posts isn't part of the reason the dealer isn't willing to work with you.
#835 of 1064 Re: Dead S-type [deadstype]
Aug 03, 2005 (10:52 am)
I truly did not mean to be (or sound) negative.
No offense intended.
My personal philosophy is to not own any vehicle beyond a manufacturer’s warrantee period. Even relatively inexpensive cars today can be prohibitively (even breathtakingly) expensive to diagnose (at shop rates) and repair. The electronics as well as the tight working quarters conspire to require extensive dis-assembly to even reach many parts under / behind the dashboard. And while a 4 or 5 year old Jag is worth MUCH less than a new one, replacing a motor (or trans. or rear diff., etc.) with new parts likely costs the dealer and / or Jag much the same as replacing those components on an equivalent new car. Perhaps even more, as many years may freeze mounting bolts, etc.
I choose not to buy extended warrantees on appliances or electronics, where my ‘exposure’ is typically limited to a few hundred to a couple thousand dollars. But that's just me. YMMV.
You are convinced that this is Jaguar’s problem – and thus they should fix it. Yet I see you say more than once that the Jag dealer cannot tell what caused the problem.
Although you state that you have had all maintenance performed (and I have no reason to dispute this) Jaguar may have no way (short of tearing apart the motor) to tell what caused this catastrophic failure.
In Jag’s view, I suppose they may believe it to be possible that the car was mechanically abused. Since they say they do not know what happened or what caused it to happen.
Assuming that you are confident that they will find no signs of abuse, perhaps one course of action would be to suggest that they (dealer and Jag) agree to pay two thirds or three quarters (as best you can negotiate) of the (estimated) $13,000 cost, if they will tear it down and if they find the failure is a result of a manufacturer defect. And you will pay that higher portion (or all of it) if they do find evidence of abuse – however that is to be defined and decided. (Perhaps by a disinterested / independent third party?)
Just my 2,000 cents worth . .
FWIW: MBA – with high honors . .
#836 of 1064 $13K Re: Dead S-type [deadstype]
Aug 03, 2005 (11:05 am)
Also, that $13,000 seems really, really high to me.
A somewhat comparable Caddy Northstar V8 is available as a crate motor for something like $4,500 at:
(Not that you could slip that motor in, of course, much as I’d like to drive such a “conversion” . .)
I’d expect that a complete, new Jag V8 (installed) would (or should) be way less than $13K. And a used Jag motor from a wreck ought to be even less $$s.
Again – I sincerely wish you good luck.
Wondering what 320 / 310 HP / TQ would do for that S-Type . .
#837 of 1064 Re: Dead S-type [rayainsw]
Aug 03, 2005 (11:17 am)
I understand what you say. I am very confident they will not find any mechanical abuse. What I mean by they could not determine the cause, is that they do not know what made it happen, they could not say oh well this was caused by something that you did, and the service department agrees with me and admits that it is a defect in the vehicle, they said they have never seen this before and S-types do not have these kind of problems, this is a fluke, they even apologized to me and they are the ones who told me to talk to Jaguar the company, since the dealership can't do anything about it after warranty. The service rep. even told me Jaguar should take care of it and to pursue it because like he said and I say, and everyone should agree this should not happen to a Jag or any car at 29,000 miles, and they've seen the care I kept of my car. Unfortunatly the helpful people at Jaguar customer care, and at my local dealer are on the low end of the pole, and they have met me and seen my car and agree with me, but their superior who hasn't even seen my car is the one who makes decisions, and obviously those based on what they can save sacrficing a quality reputation and of of providing good customer service. If they could tell me it was my fault, I'd accept it, or if it was a small reasonable problem at low mileage, yea. But the death of something that should have a reasonable life expectancy, I can not accept, especially one I paid hefty for. As for the post regarding my tone of voice, no this isn't the tone I take with the dealership or Jaguar, I have been very civil and polite with them. It is just frustrating when dealing with a problem such as this, when people seem to be atacking you when you posted your story in seek of some help, I thought thats what forums were for. However I must thank all of the people who have given me great advice and great contacts to others on this and other forums. I have recieved hundreds of e-mails since I have been researching all of this of people with similar stories or Jags and other high-end cars, and almost everyone can sympathize and has offered great advice. I have had people forward my story to lawyers, other Jag dealership oweners, and other people who are all actively helping me. So my advice to anyone else is don't give up if you think you are owed a certain level of quality, because some people genuinely do care and are willing to help. Do your research and post on these forums and anything else and you'll be helped. Luckily I contacted the Jaguar National Club of America, and my local Jaguar owners club, and they have been the biggest help EVER!!! To any of you Jag owners out their join your local and national club. Members of these clubs included Dealers, Mechanics, Lawyers, etc. who all own Jaguars and sympathize, and will do anything to help you out. I have had countless offers of fellow-jag club members who are mechanics giving offers that are at cost for a new engine just becuase they feel what I am saying, and they do anything to help fellow club members. So thanks. And I will keep this forum posted and hopefully I can help somebody later with a similar situation after my problem is resolved.
#838 of 1064 Re: Dead S-type [deadstype]
Aug 03, 2005 (5:10 pm)
Please do keep us posted - the folks here are interested in what's going on and are sincerely trying to help.
No one attacked you here - I think maybe you might have read a bit too much into some things that were asked. That can happen, and is especially easy to fall into when one is mad at a situation. I know the folks here understand that and no one is upset with you. As I say, everyone genuinely wants to be helpful.
And you know what? If you would break your message into paragraphs with a blank line in between them, they would be easier to read and thus easier to follow.
Let us know how it goes - good luck.