Last post on Nov 05, 2013 at 12:08 PM
You are in the Acura RL
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Acura RL, Sedan
#2640 of 7386 Re: legendman [markcincinnati #1199] Diesel
Jun 09, 2004 (2:04 pm)
>Turbo Diesel should be considered too!<
A buddy of mine, a real estate agent, just sold his 1997 Mercedes S class for a 1997 Mercedes E class with diesel engine. He claims that the fuel mileage is signicantly greater than in a gasoline fueled E class counterpart. He reports that in Europe, diesels are all the rage, and given a few more years, that will happen here in the USA. I kind of doubt that, the thought of a diesel in an Acura RL doesn't quite cut it. He claims that in Europe, you have to special order a gasoline engine. (Trust me -- I'm not too sure of his "facts"!)
With the cost of fuel headed North, its incumbent on the auto makers to design and sell more fuel efficient cars. The last ten years seem to have been at a standstill, as regards general fuel economy. It seems that horsepower and bragging rights -- including the V8 engines we've been talking about -- have been paramount to buyers of luxury cars and Navigator sized SUVs.
Me thinks that with gas prices what they are, the downsized cars and gas sipping engines of the post 70's oil embargo may reemerge.
As someone here said a while back, maybe Honda was right in staying with 6 cylinder engine manufacture, and not making a V8. I suppose that like neckties, if you wait long enough, they'll eventually come back in style.
#2641 of 7386 Re: legendman [legendman #1200]
Jun 09, 2004 (3:15 pm)
The interesting thing with clean burn turbo diesel cars, is the performance is remarkable.
I took a three day driving course in Austria -- our cars were 2.5TD Audi A4's -- 6 speed manuals. We also had a one year old S4 (turbo gas) -- the off the line grunt of these two cars was remarkably close.
The thing we Americans love so much is torque, we hardly care about horsepower (except to brag).
Diesels, esp TD's, are capable of low low low RPM torque, decent horsepower and fantastic economy (and if we get to clean fuel, which I keep reading is "coming soon" -- well, case closed).
Your "next car" may be a TD -- and the Acura would be a stormer with such an engine -- it could still have 300HP but the torque and fuel economy would shoot up -- as would the performance, 0 - 60.
The TD is the next HP and Green car all rolled into one -- couple it with SH AWD, a decent balance of weight over the F+R wheels and you would have the "car of the future." Bye bye gasoline powered cars -- especially at $3 a gallon (coming soon to a pump near you!)
Jun 09, 2004 (4:02 pm)
What are the pros and cons of diesel?
#2643 of 7386 Re: legendman [markcincinnati #1201]
Jun 09, 2004 (11:24 pm)
Mark, I don't think Honda make diesel engines, do they? I believe the Honda they sell with diesel engines in Europe are bought from other. The chance we see diesel RL is much slimmer than a Hybrid RL.
In fact, I have been wondering why diesel engines can't rev as high to generate hp? Is it because they run w/o spark plugs? My impression with diesel vehicles stays at my dad's diesel truck. Outdated, I know.
Jun 09, 2004 (11:38 pm)
Diesels make boatloads of torque. Mercedes new E320 CDI makes something like 370lb.ft, more than the E500 does. HP is roughly 200. Im pretty sure that its faster than the gasoline E320, but not as fast as the E500. Diesel's problem in the US is largely its image. Americans have a perception of diesel cars as being dirty, smelly, and unreliable. (From '70s era european cars). While our European friends have seen diesels get modernized to the point where they are just as refined as gasoline, most companies just assumed "Americans just want gas" and so nobody really bothered to try and sell diesels other than a few VW small cars and the E class. Untreated diesel has a lot of sulfur content, which leads to dirty emmisions that wont pass some US emissions laws. (The new E320 CDI is only legal in 45 of 50 states). We're supposed to get "clean diesel" in 2006, which reduces the sulfur content and should allow the E to be sold in all 50 states. The E makes 27 city / 37 highway, and if combined with a hybrid system, it could probably get Prius levels of fuel efficiency, which would be spectacular.
Jun 09, 2004 (11:45 pm)
A turbo charged Honda engine (other than their jetskis) is REALLY unlikely. Like BMW, Honda simply doesnt do forced induction.
Jun 10, 2004 (5:38 am)
My remarks are in no way meant to imply that I thought or think that Honda or Acura will bring an oil burner, blown or not, to the US or anywhere for that matter.
In the US, the worm will soon be turning for oil burners. Why?
Clean diesel fuel is coming soon. A 200HP E class with some 370foot pounds of torque would be both plenty fast (130mph no problem) and plenty plenty quick. Moreover, it would last longer and get better economy -- and with the afforementioned clean fuel, would actually be able, utlimately, to be considered an LEV.
Honda may elect to go hybrid -- some are even considering hybrid with the internal combustion component of the marriage to be diesel.
I do not claim, or at this point, believe, that Honda is one of these companies -- but stranger things have happened.
And, who knows about turbo or other forced induction thought processes -- they are a potent way to increase volumetric efficiency and CAN reduce weight. Again, I have no notion that this will show up anytime soon in any Honda product.
Diesels in the US suffer ONLY one true problem (or with the advent of clean fuel will only have one hurdle left to clear -- Image!).
This, too, will change. As they say, money talks! Diesel is economical AND the high performance alternative, so far, if you want both economy and performance in the same package.
Whoda thunk it?!?
#2647 of 7386 Re: legendman [ceric #1203]
Jun 10, 2004 (6:29 am)
Goto: http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=234399 for information on Honda's impressive achievements in diesel technology and performance.
Honda Diesel Sets New World Records
Date: May 07, 2004 18:07
Submitted by: Jeff
Source: Honda UK PR
Credibility Rating: N/A
Honda’s new Accord 2.2 i-CTDi Sport has this week set no fewer than 19 world speed records and achieved 3.07 litres / 100 km (92 imperial mpg, ~76.6 US mpg) fuel economy to boot. British racing driver Robin Liddell and freelance journalist Iain Robertson were part of the European record-setting team.
Amongst the speed records set, which were all achieved in Production Car Class B (2000 – 2500 cc), were 133.04 mph (1 mile flying start), 84.25 mph (1 mile standing start) and an average speed of 130.38 mph over a 24-hour endurance period. These records were all set at Papenburg high-speed oval test track in north-west Germany on 1 and 2 May, and are all subject to FIA ratification.
Two production cars, randomly selected by FIA officials, were used to undertake the speed records, and apart from the fitting of roll-cages, racing harnesses and radio equipment for track-to-pits communication, no other modifications were made to the cars.
Following the speed record attempts, the same two cars were then driven 419 miles from Papenburg test track to Wiesbaden, near Frankfurt in order to complete the fuel economy run. The route comprised of a mixture of motorway and non-motorway driving, during which one of the Accords achieved a staggering 92 imperial mpg (US mpg=~76.6) average.
The project, whose aim was to demonstrate the performance and economy of the Accord i-CTDi, was a joint production between Honda, the FIA and Italian-based JAS Motorsport, who managed fuelling and pit-stops.
Honda UK’s driver in the speed record attempt, Robin Liddell, who has previously raced at Le Mans 24-hours, as well as the American Le Mans Series and the BRDC British GT championship, commented: "The car’s performance is very impressive, demonstrated by the records we’ve achieved. Honda has made real steps forward in styling, ergonomics and interior design with the new Accord Diesel and now has a package that can take on the best cars in its class."
A complete list of speed records, all subject to FIA ratification, is as follows:
¼-mile " 54.198 mph
1000 metres " 73.277 mph
1 mile " 84.250 mph
10 kilometres " 118.487 mph
10 miles " 123.138 mph
100 kilometres " 130.435 mph
100 miles " 131.036 mph
500 kilometres " 130.381 mph
500 miles " 131.032 mph
1000 kilometres " 130.629 mph
1000 miles " 130.786 mph
1 hour Standing start 131.257 mph
6 hours " 130.490 mph
12 hours " 130.378 mph
24 hours " 130.379 mph
#2648 of 7386 Re: legendman [ceric #1203]
May 06, 2004 (2:24 pm)
I don't think Honda make diesel engines, do they?
The 2.2 liter I-CTDi engine used in European Accord is Honda’s first in-house diesel engine. Honda’s “purchased” diesel is used in European Civic (the engine deal between Honda and GM, where Honda supplies GM with gasoline V6 engines in exchange for Isuzu 1.7 liter CTD-I for European Civic).
#2649 of 7386 Diesel versus Gasoline
Jun 10, 2004 (7:02 am)
There is another attribute that stands out in modern diesels. In the past, gasoline engines had advantage in terms of power production for a given displacement, but thanks to the development of common-rail turbo diesel technology, the peak power numbers are close to gasoline engines (and at lower rpm) with more torque (at an even lower rpm).
2.2-liter I-4 (gasoline): 145 HP 5500 rpm / 147 lb.-ft 4700 rpm (1994-97 Accord EX)
2.2-liter I-4 (diesel): 140 HP 4000 rpm / 250 lb.-ft 2000 rpm (2003+ European Accord)
But, even with use of aluminum block (a rarity in diesel engines), which makes the Honda diesel one of the lightest in its class, it is still about 100 lb. heavier than a comparable displacement gasoline engine. And although this diesel is considered one of the most refined in its class compared to BMW, Mercedes and VW diesels (from reviews in European magazines), the tag line “for a diesel” still goes with it. So, while diesels are getting impressive output, they continue to have some (diminishing) weaknesses.
Now, Honda has come up with its own version of direct ignition gasoline engine, which is supposed to improve mileage considerably (capable of going as lean as 64:1). I believe it is being offered in one of the Japanese market vehicles using Honda K-series DOHC I-VTEC, and without VCM at the moment.
So, development continues on both fronts (diesel and gasoline). As far as RL is concerned, I hope it gets some “hybrid treatment” instead of diesel for the American market.