Last post on Jun 13, 2013 at 11:06 AM
You are in the Lexus LS 400/LS 430
What is this discussion about?
Lexus LS 400, Lexus LS 430, Sedan
#7535 of 8465 Re: LS 400-1996-54K-Good deal? [goyoneuff]
Jul 21, 2005 (8:22 pm)
Until you get a LS you will never really know the joy of owning a true Lexus with all the Luxury that Implies...
The Older LS 400 is still concedered by most to be the best looking lexus...
If you can find a 98 it has a bigger engine and a number of improvements from the pre 98s...But All are good...There is a reason this company has earned it's reputation for Reliability....
I would get a Used LS over a New ES any day.
I just had a cosmetic redue of my ) 01 LS430...Dent just behind right side of front bumper....Bumper painted...and the whole car gone over a few dings taken out one or two deep enough to need a drop of paint and the whole thing buffed out....IT LOOKS BRAND NEW AGAIN...cost a little over $500....I would however be concerned about the dash and maybe look for something other then my Bosses car.
#7536 of 8465 Re: New car......or is it? [michael_mattox]
Jul 21, 2005 (8:57 pm)
I'll disagree with Michael on this one. Going to Japan is going too far and it'll get lost in the shuffle. They'll just push it off to the US anyway (after weeks of getting nowhere in that hierarchy), you'll lose time and I doubt they'll pass it off with any urgency. There is no urgency here for the parent company to have concern for (it's a dealer relationship issue anyway, not a real company product issue) and you'll tick off any US execs that can help you. High level US customer service/sales is where it belongs. You want to go high up where responsibility lies and where it really matters. I would send it certified with returned receipt.
I do agree that you have to forget the Lexus service rep bs as he is not high enough in command and will only react when pushed from higher up.
#7537 of 8465 Re: New car......or is it? [ljflx]
Jul 21, 2005 (10:55 pm)
How about just contacting your local TV station? There's usually someone/reporter dedicated to business and consumer news I'm sure who would love to do a story like yours. It may just take a phone interview to the dealer by the reporter to get some action. Alan Mendelson in KCAL channel 9 in Los Angeles sometimes do stories like this.
Jul 22, 2005 (6:31 pm)
What does your attorney have to say?? We posters who are not legally endowed, have many opinions, but you should at least know where you stand before doing anything....If attorney is discouraging, then your dealing with Lexus would be more low key, and possibly a renumeration would be o.k......I have found that sometimes my attorney feels that (case law) is totally against me, and although I have disagreed, and there was nothing I could do. In those cases, slowly I just forgot about the injustice and life went on.....In the times I did have a case, the people who abused me offered settlements----which I didn`t want to accept-----and slowly the attorneys wore me down to the point where I accepted a negocated deal.....In all cases--I forgot about them after a while and went on with my life...... Now the ones we went to trial over, I remember vividly to this day....You don`t want to do that if at all possibel With Lexus, they have always gone the extra mile with me----with out me even asking them to do something, and I have purchased a good number of cars from them over the years. I wish you good fortune with this apparent injustice Tony
#7539 of 8465 Re: stomp 32 [anthonyp]
Jul 22, 2005 (8:06 pm)
My attorney stresses I should wait for final reply from Lexus before taking further action. Though I have never taken anyone to court before, it would certainly consume more of my time than just what I've been doing so far, and I am not looking forward to that.
I will, however, look into going to the media for assistance. The San Jose Mercury News has a columnist who deals with these matters, and several television stations have a consumer advocate who does special features. I am sure they would want to have at least several similar complaints before going forward with the story.
Additionally, I will try going over the general manager's head and write to his boss. This dealership is one of many owned by the same person, and I'm sure there has to be some kind of regional manager. I can only hope he's an honest man who wants to rein in a GM that encourages creative sales techniques.
If nothing else, my story can hopefully help readers to be especially aware throughout the entire car purchasing process. Negotiating the price is just the beginning. Fear the finance manager! He is usually the slickest of them all.
#7540 of 8465 Re: New car......or is it? [oac]
Jul 22, 2005 (10:01 pm)
I will only weigh in on this because oac asked me to. You all may not like my response.
First, I have to state my bias. Although I am an attorney, I own a business (securities firm) in which clients suffering buyer's remorse often find attorneys who tell them that they can get financial recompense simply by filing a lawsuit. In fact, the cost of defense is so high that it is cheaper to settle for a few thousand bucks than win a case. So I am not too favorably inclined towards people wanting to sue over losses that are at most not significant.
Having said that, in looking at these situations, the operative phrase is "the Devil is in the details." And I have to say I can't quite follow all the salient details of this case. For example, I don't know what a "rollback" is; the only use of that term in relation to cars that I know has to do with odometers-- and it is illegal. But if someone offers me a car and tells me that a friend of the owner of the dealership had driven it for 1500 miles, decided he didn't like it, and the dealer agreed to take it back-- that seems to tell me pretty clearly that I am not buying a "new" car. I believe "new" in this context is pretty much universally understood to mean "never previously titled". Keith, although I understand that that may not have been what you were thinking, it's hard to accept that the dealer defrauded you if he gave you that information.
Even if you want to assume the dealer misled you, what are your damages? You told us the price you originally paid reflected that the car had 1500 miles on it. So you didn't pay "full" price for the car when you bought it. It's now over a year later, and if you were to trade the car in I don't see what you have lost that isn't covered by the extra "discount" you got up front.
So it looks like there may have been some misunderstanding, but no real economic damages. Maybe that's what the sales manager was trying to tell you: any miscommunication, whether intentional on their part or not (hopefully not intentional), doesn't entitle you to drive a car for over a year and then turn it in and get all your money back. But it sounds like you deserve an apology, and a heckuva good deal on a trade-in!
Am I missing something here?
#7541 of 8465 Re: New car......or is it? [garyh1]
Jul 23, 2005 (6:32 am)
Gary - good points. I was trying to make similar ones but you clarified them a lot better.
There really was a mis-representation here but there are no economic issues to warrant a lawsuit. An arbitrator would likely throw the case out because the price paid was fair - whether new or used and most cars don't lose much value after only 1500 miles anyway. The rollback was probably a price rollback to reflect 1500 miles of driving and that further weakens any economic case here. Don't know if this was a finance deal thru Lexus but checking the "new" box would only help the buyer with interest rates (purchase or lease) anyway. .Most banks wouldn't check a car that a dealer is selling in the same model year. They'd just assume it was new or a demo. I agree an apoology and a few free service appointments or credit vouchers are in order here. This would be a small claims court case anf I could just here judge Judy spaeking at the top of her lungs - "Did you know you were buying a car with 1500 miles on it or not".
Keith - take whatever concessions you can get and use Lexus customer service to get them. Emotions over things like this too easily overcome the cold hard business reality that others will look upon this with. Those emotions will only cost you money. Appeals to a government agency will only result in them slapping a fine on the dealer. You'd have to decide if that is worth your time. Going the media route can be ugly for everyone, including you.
#7542 of 8465 Re: New car......or is it? [ljflx]
Jul 23, 2005 (7:30 am)
There have been no concessions offered whatsoever. To offer any would be admitting at least some fault, which the dealer is loathe to do.
Of course I knew that the car had 1500 miles on it. There are cars on dealers' lots with 75 miles and are considered used. The point is that when a dealer takes back a car from someone for whatever reason, a huge financial penalty is assessed. Why? Because the dealer can only sell the car as used and informed people (unlike me at the time) will obviously not pay anywhere near full price for a used car. Besides, anytime someone lies to you, it can't be good, can it?
For example, if you saw two exact same cars on a lot, both with 50 miles on the odometer, but one was new and the other used, which one would you expect a bigger discount on?
Since then I have learned many things a dealer can do to put more money in his pocket, all of them at the very least unethical. From showing people false invoice prices to giving people false credit report scores. They get away with this because of poor to nonexistent regulation.
I have learned a hard and embarrassing lesson. I've put my story here at risk of being perceived as gullible or even dumb not only for the advice of the good folks on this board, but also to inform anyone who was not aware of such dealer practices. As the saying goes, "If I can help just one person........."
#7543 of 8465 Re: New car......or is it? [garyh1]
Jul 23, 2005 (7:49 am)
As even people who aren't attorneys know, a written contract is much stronger than an oral contract. Regardless of what they told me, the written contract in my possession states that my car is new.
I firmly believe that any misrepresentation was intentional. In hindsight, too many things just didn't ring true. Not only that, but everyone from other dealers to two attorneys whom I consulted believe that my story, at face value, indicates the dealer defrauded me.
My real issue is that there is very little a person can do to be made whole. Yes, the dollar amount is considered small, but I'll bet this is not the one and only time this has happened, so things can certainly add up.
Usually, when someone lies to you, it isn't for your benefit. I shoulda had by bs radar on!
#7544 of 8465 Re: New car......or is it? [stomp32]
Jul 23, 2005 (11:16 am)
I have learned a hard and embarrassing lesson. I've put my story here at risk of being perceived as gullible or even dumb not only for the advice of the good folks on this board, but also to inform anyone who was not aware of such dealer practices...
This is a very good story, Keith, and there is nothing to be embarrased about. We can all get complacent thinking that an Elite Lexus dealership will never stoop to such basal levels in tha act of selling their premium luxury car to anyone. We all should have our guards up regardless... I know I do after a nasty experience at a Toyota dealership while buying an SUV for my wife; that was back in Dec 2000. In my case, after a carefully worded letter to the GM of the dealership, I received a call from the GM apologizing, and providing $300 of credit towards any service, parts or labor at the dealership. I accepted the apology and the voucher, and everyone was satisfied. Lesson learnt for me as well.....