Last post on Feb 17, 2010 at 2:54 PM
You are in the Honda Civic
What is this discussion about?
Honda Civic, Hyundai Elantra, Sedan
Jun 16, 2000 (10:28 am)
when the japanese came to america in 1990( yes only 10 years ago) with their lexus and infiniti luxury v8's,
the germans who has the luxury segment to themselves up to that time were put under pressure...
bmw had to come out with their first v8 in 43 years...
ditto for the british... jaguar had to recently come up with their first v8 in history...
the british had always been copying the germans in design and engineering... look at the jags of 50 tears ago and the jags of today and you will find the definite resemblance of the jags to the german mb and bmw...
in todays( well yesterday's now) june.15, 2000 issue section A23, the wsj talks about how the japan lost the no. 1 spot in shipbuilding last year to korea...
and korea is likely to hold on to the no. 1 spot in the foreseeable future...
new shipbuilding orders for japanese shipbuilders last year totaled 9.7 million gross tons, down 9.2 % from a year earlier,
while those by korean shipbuilders hit 12.7 million tons, up 27%...
"it is widely known here that it has become difficult for some japanese shipbuilders to compete effectively because the japanese companies' cost structures are higher and scale of output lower."
the cost structure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it is also widely known that japan's layer after layer of distribution channnels contribute to the high cost of doing business in japan...
i mean why does a cup of coffee have to cost over $10 in japan??????????????????????????????????
could it be because of the extremely high rent???
could it be because of the layer after layer of inefficient distribution channels that contineues to keep japan's econoy in a stagnant state and even depression???
or could it be that the japanese coffee is more reliable??? and has an added secret ingredient???
why should a cup o' good old cofee have to cost $10???
the reality is, that what many japanese consumers have to face everyday...
a 1300 sq. ft condo in tokyo cost $$$2.5 million in japan...
the cost structure is just to high for some japanese companies to compete like the wsj
businessweek and l.a. times the did a recent article where they talked about the improved queality of the korean cars and how it helped hyundai overtake mazda as the no. 5 asian brand of cars sold in the u.s.
toyo, honda, niss, mitsu and hyundai...
and analysts predict that hyundai will overtake mitsu for the no. 4 spot soon...
so there... the high cost structure and very high labour wages of japanese companies is a major reason that the honda civcs are over-priced and under-equipped....
do the owners of civics and hondas think that they are driving a formula 1 car????? or something???
those racing engines don't last a few hundred miles and they have to get rebulit after every race... so do you still think you are getting a formula one car???
get over it... it's a dinky little under-powered and under-equipped 4 banger with no guts...
btw fyi honda sells on average a little over 30,000 civics a month
and hyundai sells a little over 10,000 elantras a month here in the u.s.
it's time for the koreans to put some pressure on the japanese...
so we americans don't have to pay $10 for a cup o' coffee...
do you wanna pay $10 for a cup o' coffee????
that's probably not even colombian?????...
and btw luifei korea has since rebounded quite nicely found the econ. crises three years ago posting around 10% growth in recent years... last year it was more than 10% this years the world bank is predicting around 8.6%...
all the major indicators including inflation, real estate figures, unemployment growth, are on par if not better than before the crisis... and it has helped to weed out the financially weaker companies...
it has actually helped strengthen the economy...
as for daewoo, they were in a massive expansion that included factoreis in china, poland, india, romania, uzbekistan, vietnam, etc... then the crises of 3 years ago sent the currney falling so daewoo was put in a cash crunch...
even daewooo is very popular around the world today...
no.1 in peru, no.1 or 2 in poland the largest market in eastern europe... they outbid gm for the biggest factory there...
a lot of companies have sold some stake in the companies but it was most on a partial basis...
and financial reasons were the main reason...
as one british contractor put it, the british and korean companies can create a synergy effect by utilizing british marketing with korea's excellent construction expertise and prowess...
hey many huge project were done by korean companies including the petro twin tower building in malaysia and the great water canal in the middle east... called by many as the eighth wonder of the world...
and the summit meeting between north and south korea has gone beyond everybody's expectations with both sides aggreeing to work towards a peaceful reunification... and exchange visits in the future...
already they have contributed to world peace and stability in asia...
let's hope they bring us some upmarket cars soon...
#162 of 1641 Re:jxcar
Jun 16, 2000 (11:53 am)
Ungh... I think I still dont get my point across. What I meant to say is that the number of Elantras on the road since the early 90's pale in comparison with the number of Civic. Thus, AIS should have much fewer call regarding the Elantra, not enough to make a representation of the "real" stats out there, or at least their representation will not be as accurate as Civic. Besides, how many mechanics "really" called AIS anyway if they have problem? Its not like all hyundai mechanics and honda mechanics going to call them when they have problem, remember, they only provides solution to those that are not familiar with. I sincerely doubt some mechanic will call them just to change the timing belt,hence skewing the stats even more.
They only have like 30 something technician, I doubt they can handle thousands of call each month.
Besides, their ratings and methods are inconsistent at best. For example: check out the Ford Taurus and the Honda Accord for instance. How can Carpoint categorized the PERIODIC failure of the transmission clutch piston that cost $915 to fix in the Taurus in the same category with the OCCASIONAL problem with the stop lamp switch in the Accord that only cost $85?? If its really based on the number of call/total problem, then there's definitely a problem with their method, since occasional problem will never reach the status of periodic problem,(otherwise they will call it periodic to begin with). Same thing with the cost outline.
Also, all this auto-site has preference over some brand and "disgust" over the other. Carpoint seems to rank Japanese car lower while raising the score of domestic. Edmund and Consumer Report on the other hand, seems to be the exact opposite.
Jun 16, 2000 (12:13 pm)
I wanted to comment on the following:
the british had always been copying the germans in
design and engineering... look at the jags of 50
tears ago and the jags of today and you will find
the definite resemblance of the jags to the german
mb and bmw...
It's true! The man who designed the famous Jaguar
XKE had Dr. Porsche's 956 in his mind's eye. I've looked at this and I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it.
However, Civics sold in the US are made in Canada.
Production from Japan, if there is any, has the exact price structure. Canada labor costs, taxing, etc. relate to the North American Free Trade Agreement and similar trade agreements.
The cost of living in Tokyo or New York doesn't come into it. South Korea's labor market affects the price of Hyundais. This does not mean that Hyundais are the same material quality as Hondas. It is apples to oranges Korea's economy to Japan's regarding US prices of Hyundai and Honda.
Jun 16, 2000 (12:15 pm)
I recalled a while back an influential person in Detroit (I think it was the retiring head of GM) said this statement:
"...the only contribution the japanese auto maker have done to the auto industry is the coin holder in the dashboard."
I doubt he still think this way. Given time, Korean car maker should be able to make significant contribution to the auto industry (if they havent done it now). Besides, Japanese auto-maker copy everything from their American counterpart to begin with.
Personally, I prefer they stick with the tried and proven and just make it better than figling an entire new stuff. (hehe, sounds like that commercial..)
Err... why do you keep bringing up the racing stuff? I dont think the civic owner are that stupid comparing theirs to a formula 1 (who is that stupid for pete's sake???)
Being no.1 in peru or poland hardly a big testament to them. IF GM or Toyota want to, I seriously think they can flood the market with their offering and create some serious competition.
I still dont think there's anything special with Korea. Right now they're enjoying the same thing Japan enjoyed in the 1980's, once the their cost rises, they will be less value-oriented. By that time, China probably going to take their place.
You didnt respond to what I said regarding Korean worker, since Japan achieved what Korea just now achieved in shorter period of time, they should be even more amazing that the Korean isnt it?
And regarding contributing to world peace and stability, THEY ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM to begin with! With their north and south division. Forcing the US to guard the whatever parallel that divide them. Sure glad its not becoming another Vietnam back there.
It only make sense for them to reunited, and still they bicker and argue about it until now, while leaving thousands (or is it millions now) of the N.Korean die of hunger... (i guess pride over reality).
For short, no, I dont think Korea are that amazing. They're just hard working ppl that try hard to succeed, and in some field, they have done a good job.
#165 of 1641 aficionado
Jun 16, 2000 (3:10 pm)
Forget the topic of Racing he brings up...why keep bring up the #1 shipbuilding point? Who cares? $10 coffee? who cares. But what to know why it $10? they don't grow it. they import and since they are stuck all the way where they are at, it costs alot more to bring it in. Supply and demand my man. Just like Hyundais. Not in demand so the price is down. Hondas in demand, so price is up.
I could care less about coffee or Levis in Japan. i could care less about s.Korea being the largest shipbuilder.
I DO care that my care will last 10 yrs easy. i do care about reliability as a whole although there are lemons in every car maker. until the Hyundais prove themselves over the next few years, you are not going to change anyones mind.
Jun 16, 2000 (11:18 pm)
I've been away from this site for some time and am dismayed to see isellhondas still at the same old game. If his name is accurate, then he must be being paid by Honda to trash other makes, for he wouldn't seem to have time to sell Hondas or anything else. Surely everybody on this site knows by now that he believes Hyundais have lower resale value than Hondas - why keep repeating it over and over, except to preempt serious conversation about these cars, which for many people represent one of the most important purchases of their lives. As for me, I own a Honda Accord with 100,000 miles and no problems, and a 6-month-old Hyundai Elantra with 5200 miles and no problems. Both terrific cars. I purchased the Elantra last November instead of a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla, which of course I also tested, for the usual combination of comfort, driveability, perceived quality, and price. The Hyundai warranty was a consideration also, largely because it suggested that the company has confidence in its cars. As for resale value, of course that's also a consideration, but if you sell a new car within a couple of years of purchase, you will take a bath regardless of make, and if you keep it for 10 years, resale value is a distant thought. And don't forget that you have to pay sales taxes on the price in most states, and annual ad valorem taxes too, and your insurance premiums may also be affected by the cost of replacing your car, so the cheaper car isn't only cheaper to buy, it's cheaper to keep. In the long run, resale value is actually a rather complex equation. Anyway, I'd love to hear serious discussions of driving issues and give resale value a well deserved rest.
#167 of 1641 more on STATS
Jun 16, 2000 (11:59 pm)
Yes, stats are not always "facts" for many reasons. Two of which I can think of are: 1. The methods to generate and/or interpret data are flawed. Like Liufei questioned, if AIS used the total number of calls as the standard for their rating, itŐs irrational. 2.People who collect the stats are biased. They may intentionally or subconsciously "select" certain kinds of data. However, I donŐt see any evidence that either of these two cases apply to the CarPoint ratings.
ItŐs not that you didnŐt get your point across, but rather you didnŐt get my points. I tried to be as concise as possible in my last post, but now I guess IŐll have to be more specific.
Yeah, I know youŐre suspecting that AIS doesnŐt have enough calls on Elantra because thereŐre just less of them sold. However, I explained to you last time that what theyŐre using is probably "a ratio" or a percentage------ number of calls over number of total cars sold for each model in a certain year. For example (hypothetically), in 1995, thereŐre 100,000 Civics sold in US while 30,000 Elantra were sold. They received a total numbers of 100 and 30 calls for these two respectively. Their ratings will be the same since the percentage is the same. I donŐt think theyŐd rate Civic less reliable than Elantra just because of the absolute numbers of 100 and 30.
Sure, not all mechanics call in for every problem, but all cars are on the same ground STATSTICALLY, if the data pool is large enough. And what if thereŐs not enough data? They just donŐt have ratings for those. Guess why they donŐt have every car models, and why thereŐs no rating for cars less than 2 years old? ThatŐs the reason right there. Also, why almost all cars have a perfect rating in their first 3 or 4 years? ThereŐre just not enough problems for any of them up to this point to make the percentage larger than the threshold for "problematic". No poll or survey can be "complete" in that sense, not even the Census, right?
"Thirty-one automotive specialists make up the core staff at AIS." Remember, thatŐs just the "core" staff. ItŐs hard to imagine they donŐt have any secretaries, line-operators, bookkeepers, etc. They claim that they receive 20,000 calls per month. ThatŐs about 1000 per working day, and about 30 calls per person. Is it really so hard to handle 4 or 5 calls per hour? I donŐt think so. That being said, even if they boasted about the number of calls a little bit, I donŐt see much difference itŐd make whether itŐs 20000 calls per month or 10000 calls per month.
Now, about the example you described, to me, itŐs not that hard to understand. Let me try to give you a few POSSIBLE explanations. Remember that I donŐt know anything more than you do other than the info. they provided on that page.
First of all, PERIODIC doesnŐt necessarily mean "more often" than OCCASIONAL. ItŐs hard to compare these two in terms of "frequency". It could mean "predictable" while the other means the opposite.
Secondly, thereŐre only three categories in their rating system: good, moderate, bad. Although I also wish it to be more detailed, I can understand itŐs not that easy to do. So each category has a range. Maybe in this case, letŐs say, 0.9% of Taurus have that clutch piston problem, but only "more than 1% have severe problem" is qualified as "bad". While 0.3% of Accord have the lamp switch problem, only "less than 0.1% have (any) problem" is qualified as "good". So unfortunately (for Accord), they both fall into the category of "moderate". That may sound unfair in some cases, but overall itŐs reasonable and justified as long as the rule is applied to all the cars equally.
At last, itŐs nice for they to give you the details of each rating, isnŐt it? The three categories maybe too simple and too rough, but with the details youŐd know exactly what youŐre looking for. Besides, that shows they are honest and serious, donŐt you think?
As to the "preference" of certain websites, I have no idea and therefor no comment. Even if itŐs true, isnŐt it nice to have info. from both sides? I wish Edmunds would have some sort of rating like that one day.
My point is: if thereŐs no evidence of mistake or intentional manipulation of data, STATS is more reliable and more believable than just what you hear from someone who owns or sells a certain car, because it's unbiased and has much larger database.
Jun 17, 2000 (2:13 pm)
I'm not the one who started this forum. Go back and read all of the posts and you'll be able to see why I felt a rebuttal was in order.
It's Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra, remember?
I guess you would like to see it totally one sided!
#169 of 1641 Hey, isellhondas
Jun 17, 2000 (4:33 pm)
No, not one-sided, just more interesting and aware of subtleties. As I said, after considering cheaper tax and insurance burdens for cheaper cars, resale value is not as straightforward as it might seem. In any event, it is only one of many considerations, most of them more important, and by now everyone knows that you consider it very important and completely skewed in Honda's favor. Couldn't we now discuss how Civic and Elantra compare in, say, quiet, comfort, reliability (not according to past statistics, which have always been available, but by actual personal experience, which the Internet makes more accessible than ever before), braking, steering, shifting, enjoyability, all those things which made up the car experience? Personally, my biggest complaint about the Elantra is that the driver's seat is too hard and too inward-curving at the shoulders. As for comparison, I found the Civic seat, when I test-drove the car, much more uncomfortable. Edumunds, by the way, rates the Elantra seat as the most comfortable of 9 economy cars, the Civic down at #7, only ahead of Corolla and Cavalier, behind Elantra, Protege, Neon, Sentra, Focus, and Nubira. What would be really wonderful is if anyone had suggestions for after-market seat covers designed to compensate for Elantra's shortcomings. Or, perhaps, given the subject of this forum, discussing optional seats for the Civic, if any are available - e.g., are leather seats available and do they make a difference in comfort? I suspect I am more sensitive to seat differences than some other people - at least, I have been told so - but I do know many people who are concerned about it. Again for purposes of comparison, my Accord seats are too low though otherwise comfortable, while my Elantra seats are positionally ideal but too hard and too curved. I'd love to hear other's comments on this, rather than just on the economics, though I suppose if I can't fix the seat I may be very interested indeed in resale value!
Jun 17, 2000 (6:58 pm)
I know I harp on the resale bit too much. This time it was a rebuttal since someone else was crowing about what a "value" a Hyundai is to a Honda when it comes to the original price. I just *had* to remind that poster about the resale down the road.
And, that's because I have to deal with this often in my business. I'm the bad guy who has to break the news to customers when I can't get a decent bid on their trade in.
On seat comfort, that's another story. What is good for one might not be good for another.
A long time ago, there was a poster here who was VERY unhappy about the seats in his new Accord Coupe! He ended up trading the car and taking a loss in the process. Now, nobody else responded back agreeing with him. When I jumped in and said that I hadn't heard that complaint, he snapped back that I was biased, etc. Well, that was at least two years ago and I STILL haven't heard a complaint on Accord Coupe seats.
But, I don't doubt he was uncomfortable. I have no idea how large/small he is either.
He did lose me a bit though when he said that his wife was having the same problem....hmmm.
Does misery love company? Who knows?