Last post on Sep 20, 2011 at 3:33 PM
You are in the Audi A4
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Audi A4, Sedan
#5650 of 6042 Well, you know me, I'll. . .
Jan 24, 2004 (8:46 am)
. . .still remind you to get the manual tranny the next time. Apparently even the new 6spd tip can be made to mimic turbo lag.
Although I must say that despite the problems I have had with Audi's automatic transmissions, I did enjoy my 1997 A8, 1999 A6 2.8, 2000 A6 4.2, 2001 A6 4.2 and 2003 allroad. Only the allroad of this group of Audis that has been parked in our garage is a 6spd manual. All the others Audis that preceded the 1997 A8 and my wife's (manual only Audis) were manual.
There was no choice in the A8 when I got it -- and imagine the culture shock I went through when I traded my 1995 S6 in on the A8.
Elsewhere on the Internet there is a petition to Audi of America requesting, some would say demanding that Audi address this problem. I do not know of anyone with an Audi with the tiptronic that does not have this problem from time to time.
My sweeeet 2001 A6 4.2 sport would, unpredictably at first, go into lag-mode when it was most, how should I say, "inconvenient" (some would go so far as to say dangerous.) But I figured out how to more or less be "taught by the car" how to drive to avoid (mostly) the terrible tiptronic trials and tribulations (ain't alliteration fun?)
The tiptronic, as noted, does not like the Michigan system (left foot braking was called this when I took driver's ed in the late '60's.)
So cut it out.
The tip also doesn't seem to appreciate "rolling stops" or near stops or, frankly slow downs that are on the threshold of the down shift to first gear. And, if I'm lyin' I'm dyin' the tiptronic as it has been apparently programmed "hates" first gear. My Audis were hell-bent to get to the next highest gear so quickly (too early for my tastes) that I often felt I was rarely in the transmission/engine's sweet spot insofar as the torque curve was concerned.
In English: the car was in third (or whatever) gear about two+ seconds earlier than would be appropriate if you might immediately need to merge or accelerate briskly (without flooring the accelerator, that is). In the 2001 model there was no "S" mode and with the V8, well tip mode is a joke since the transmission shifts out of first gear after about 3 feet of forward motion has taken place, no matter what you do (short of full throttle acceleration.)
The tiptronic, IMHO, is probably not technically dangerous, but it is also pretty much Guaranteed to prevent acceleration unintended or intended, until you learn it's quirks and begin to adjust your style to it's programming.
The tiptronic is a reverse Pavlov's dog -- and the driver is the dog, the car rings the bell and the driver salivates, so to speak.
Now, I have driven a 2002 last on the lot S6 avant -- when I was considering a new allroad or S6 (and remember I was very very familiar at that juncture with the V8 and tiptronic marriage.) The S6 tiptronic was "righ now" responsive -- without flooring the accelerator. Perhaps the "way it should be" in all tip equipped Audis.
I am often loaned new Audis when my allroad is in for service and I can assure you that the CVT does not suffer from tip lag but that the A4 1.8T and 3.0 do, but the effect is about 95% masked if the transmission is kept in "S" mode.
Why or what in the wide wide world of sports would this transmission's obvious and repeated (everywhere on the net and in the quattro quarterly, for example) faults be allowed to soldier on (by Audi?) Moreover, even though a casual test drive may not uncover the lag, one would also wonder why more folks don't compare the wonderful manual 6spd and the tiptronic and come to the conclusion that the tip, even when it is on its best behavior, sucks the power out of the car?
Test drive a 1.8T and a 3.0 back to back with the two transmissions. The differences are not subtle; the manual transmission cars permit more rapid acceleration, control, performance and -- due to these attributes imparted -- safety.
The tiptronic appears to be cruisin' for a bruisin' if you read the rants here, there and everywhere.
Now, I for one, believe Audi got a bum rap on the Audi 5000 60 Minutes Unitended Acceleration fiasco; but the folks that carp about the current version of the tiptronic are -- by virtue of the numbers of them alone -- hardly on the fringe, hardly a bunch of fanatics -- generally speaking these folks are passionate fans of the brand.
Indeed, this, IMHO, is the only siginicant issue (currently) plaguing Audis otherwise fine line of cars.
Finally, even though I have a certain degree of incredulity that apparently "little or nothing is being done to address this problem," I also temper these opinions, facts and emotions with my perspective that the situation was, for me, annoying, sometimes inconvenient, sometimes embarrassing (when the only way I could get out of the way was to floor the accelerator which made the car LEAP forward -- which my mother-in-law didn't appreciate), but not rising to dangerous as is being alleged elsewhere.
Moral of the story and opinion: test drive both versions stick and auto. You choose. Afterwards, though -- realize that the current party line is "nothing is wrong." Well, pull the other one.
P.S. check post #213 on the edmunds town all allroad board, "it's everywhere, it's everywhere!" (tip issues, that is.)
#5651 of 6042 response to 5650
Jan 24, 2004 (1:53 pm)
So, markcincinnati, you place all of this lag on the Tip? I agree it saps power, etc and appreciated all your other comments and insight......but doesn't that negate the drive-by-wire, fuzzy logic issue? I'm wondering if a performance chip would help? I understand there is a GIAC chip for the tranny as well as the engine. Any thoughts from markcinci or others?
#5652 of 6042 Tip chip and turbo chip (and even non turbo chip)
Jan 25, 2004 (11:35 am)
Turbo charged engines -- even Audi's -- do have some lag, but it is virtually always identical and hence predictable and once you learn that the turbo lag is virtually absent from 1950 RPMS on up, well you can basically just keep things in the sweet spot (of course it is easier to do so with the 6spd manual).
The tip lag may exacerbate the turbo lag -- but the point is that the tip lag is difficult to predict, it is difficult to learn a set of behaviors that always always always achieves the same result. I did get pretty good at tailoring my driving to the tip's propensity to upshift early and therefore provide less "immediate" acceleration. As noted "S" mode, apparently, removes much of this by virtue of the fact the "S" mode keeps the transmission in gear a bit longer before upshift.
There are discussions of the tip chip elsewhere on the WWW and there is, more or less, an expert available at Joe Hoppen Motorsports (on the WWW, too.) Hoppen is an MTM dealer.
With respect to the turbo chip, well, this is the easiest way to get more torque and power from an Audi turbocharged engine. It should be noted, however, that the chip does raise the RPM's somewhat to achieve the massive torque that is transplanted into the turbo engine by virtue of the chip.
Other helpful mods include new pipes, ByPassValves, Bi-Pipes, and even larger turbos and even more aggressive chips.
I saw an Audi 1.8T TT that had been chipped and modded to 350HP, yet it looked normal in every respect save for the Candy Apple Red Pearl paint job and 18" super big bucks wheels.
The tip, for many, is unsatisfying -- I said MANY not most; for I do believe that most folks, even if they notice the tip lag, accept it, adapt to it and live with it simply because even with its flaws and lag it is an excellent transmission.
Driving a late model BMW auto, however, or an Audi Stick or BMW stick and then returning to the tip, makes the tip equipped version's slight hesitiation considerably more noticable.
I called it annoying, as I recall -- others, not I, call it dangerous. Virtually all notice it.
If you have the tip and it has S mode, try that first -- you may find in slow almost stop and then go traffic that "S" mode is fine.
With respect to the turbo chip -- personal preference all the way. I have a 2.7T in my 2003 allroad (stick shift), I did put sport ByPassValves on the engine, but find it quicker and faster than a huge majority of cars. And, thus far, full throttle acceleration onto a crowded Interstate has been safe, effortless and "fun."
Hopefully there is a software update that will be soon applied to the tip -- it must exist, for no such complaint, thus far, has been made about the RS 6 or S4 6spd tiptronic.
#5653 of 6042 performance mods
Jan 25, 2004 (1:38 pm)
I have a 3.0, not a turbo. Any advice on performance modifications for that?
And, yes, using S mode in stop and go does help some. I've been doing that for some time. Certainly addresses the quick upshift tendancy.
#5654 of 6042 Just another justification for a manual tranny
Jan 25, 2004 (2:24 pm)
In this 21st Century version of the United States of America, a manual transmission is probably one of the most effective anti-theft devices on the market, and the price, -$1,000+, is hard to beat. A few years ago, my stepson took his car into the high school auto mechanics shop to have some free work done. (The school charged for parts, of course.) He had to drive his car into the shop and drive it out again when the work was completed because none of the students taking auto mechanics, nor the teacher, knew how to drive a stick shift, and they all had their drivers licenses. My sons used to borrow my Audi's to show off that they could drive five-speed manuals, not to show off that we had Audi's. Besides a limited demand for stolen cars with manual transmissions, I assume there are fewer auto thieves nowadays who can shift for themselves.
#5655 of 6042 manual tranny
Jan 25, 2004 (4:51 pm)
I second that, cosmo2! I wanted manual for my Audi, but my wife and I swap cars or share driving sometimes and she really insisted on an automatic. She has driven manual, but isn't very comfortable. I've regretted the decision ever since. I assure you I won't buy another Audi with Tiptronic! I bought 5-speeds for my sons to be sure they learned how to drive stick. Both worked as valets at a country club for a few summers. Guess who got to drive all the really cool, exotic cars?? They were often the only ones who could drive a stick. I collect British cars (currently a Triumph TR6 and Jag E-Type). We love taking them out with friends and so far haven't had anyone unable to drive them. It's that younger generation I worry about!
#5656 of 6042 Tipchip/chip for 3.0
Jan 25, 2004 (8:23 pm)
Never driven a car equipped with a tipchip but others have posted on Audi-specific sites that it decreases the shift time of the tranny from 1 sec to 0.2 sec. Think of it as a short-shifter for your tip. Checked with GIAC and I believe they currently only have them for the B5 (pre-2002) A4s.
For the N/A 3.0, I believe GIAC makes an ECU chip but their website isn't up to date. Neuspeed makes one that increases power 7-9 hp (don't get nearly the gains as with a turbo) and costs $199. Rev limiter and top speed governor are raised.
#5657 of 6042 Chips for the 3.0
Jan 26, 2004 (2:05 pm)
So far GAIC has not produced a Tip chip for the B6 platform. Their website is misleading, but accurate when you try to order the tip chip (you'll get an error). Many of us Tip owners have been asking for this for 2 years now with no real response from GAIC. =(
I have added a performance chip from Wetterauer onto my 3.0. It increases the horsepower by 15 to 235 HP. It increases the torque by 20 to 241 ft. lbs. Essentially, it is doing a timing advance. Cost for the chip is at $395. Wetterauer is highly regarded in Germany, and their products are TUV certified. There really aren't many companies who offer performance mods for the 3.0 NA engine.
I've had the chip for over 15,000 miles without any problems. The easiest thing to notice is the torque increase during acceleration. I can feel myself being pressed further into the driver's seat than before. =)
As for the tranny, the only thing I have done was to lean how the tranny shifts (including learning the time delay between shifts) and compensate for the delays. I'm ususally driving in Tip mode 95% of the time (yes, the next one will be manual). I've learned to compensate the shift delay so I know when to hit the shifter (on the wheel or at the stick) so that the shift takes place when I want it.
Jan 26, 2004 (3:41 pm)
The turbo engine chips have a dramatic effect, the NA(naturally aspriated) chips have a more subtle effect.
My buddy said that the 3.0 engine can be made to do more and that you need to determine how high the stack of 100 dollar bills is that you are willing to part with.
Anything that improves the breathing will improve the "urge" of the 3.0 -- lower restriction exhaust, perhaps sport air filter, a timing advance and of course the addition of an aftermarket "blower" -- a supercharger was at one time available for the 2.8 engine that essentially did what the turbo does for the other Audi engines but with 0 lag -- but big bucks.
A new set of cat back pipes and a chip on a 1.8T gives dramatic results for "little" money. No such "little money" option is available for the 3.0 -- the chip noted above is NOT a bad thing, however. It will just not produce the "oh wow!" difference that the chip produces on the turbo motors.
If raw performance is what you want and you haven't made your mind up yet and money isn't unlimited, here is a "value" proposition.
Acquire a new 1.8T manual transmission with the Ultra Sport package and whatever options you want, then upgrade the exhaust system and put a stage 2 chip in. The car should exceed, by a wide margin, the 0-100kph acceleration of a Stock 3.0, look a lot like an S4 and handle well too. Gut check: this version will be less money than a similarly optioned 3.0. However, the 3.0 has more luxury content and that includes some that is not currently offered on the 1.8T versions.
The thus modded 1.8T will be "more agressive" and you can take that as a good thing or as a contribution to a slight loss of refinement.
The 3.0 is a very sweet automobile -- and for my money, I'd probably just go with the 3.0, not modify it but order it with every sport item audi offers in their option sheet, perhaps upgrade by 1" the wheels and tires and perhaps order the sport exhaust system from Audi directly (www.audiusa.com/collection) or from the dealer.
In other words, I would trade the raw power of the modded (and cheaper 1.8T) for the refinement of the unmodded 3.0 Stick -- I like power seats, for one thing.
Either way, you have a great car.
Or, if money truly is no object -- bag these little guys and go for the S4 (and kick sand in just about everyone else's face -- if you're into that kind of thing).
#5659 of 6042 Tip-lag-S mode
Jan 26, 2004 (8:01 pm)
I was reading the exchange above between 5651 and 5652 and wanted to understand something a little better. Are you suggesting a person could drive their 3.0 quattro with Tip by starting out in S mode from a stop and then gradually shifting into drive as a routine form of city driving day in and day out to overcome the less than satisfying drive mode? I guess I would have thought all that shifting around between D and S would not be a good thing to do? I know you guys understand this stuff at another level so if this question seems lame - sorry but I'd appreciate your feed back. I was going to work with llwyse info from an Audi guru suggesting resetting the memory and trying to stay in drive with a view toward future improvement and maybe periodically having some fun with S mode. It sounds like markcincinnati is suggesting a blended approach of using S and D modes as a regular method of driving the car.