Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#9972 of 24726 Re: Lets Slice the Data Another Way [blckislandguy]
Aug 02, 2005 (6:58 pm)
There is a key point made n ljflx's previous post. That one needs to compare resale values to MSRP of each car in order to get a better re-sale valuation. Len has also provided some numbers on BMW 745iL v LS430 UL v S500 and has shown that resale, as a factor of MSRP, is lowest for MB, about same for BMW and Lexus. Meaning: The 745i does not have a higher resale value than the LS430 despite the *higher* offer price on the former. Besides, the 2002 745i is one of the most unreliable Bimmers out there. So its *asking* price may be higher, the real re-sale price may be far less due to the specific issues that plagued that year 7-series. Terry on the "Real World Resale" forum can best peg these prices much better for us... He is a dealer and buys and sells tons of these cars daily...I'd wager that actual *buy* prices for a low-miler '02 745i will be <$40K, barely a deuce higher than comparably-equipped '02 LS430.
#9973 of 24726 Re: Toyota still stampeding [kdshapiro]
Aug 02, 2005 (7:08 pm)
I haven't heard a rattle in a Toyota/Lexus yet and there are 10 in my immediate family. I've lost count of the Toyotas and Lexi that friends and business acquaintenances have. Everyone praise the quality and reliabilty to the hilt. In fact a good part of the praise is that they don't rattle like the cars they gave up on, which are American and European. Enough said. Personal experience, CR, JD Powers, American surveys, German surveys etc etc all say the same thing. Your story is an exception, as are your friends who have Lexus problems.
#9974 of 24726 Re: Lets Slice the Data Another Way [oac]
Aug 02, 2005 (7:32 pm)
OAC, my intention was just to ruminate on how much a guy would have to spend to get himself into a reasonably late model (i.e, 2002) high end car. I didn't want to get into residuals or econometrics. Just how much the initial nut would be.
However, since you raised the subject, I disagree with your statement that "the 745i does not have a higher resale value than the LS430 .." Moreover, this statement contradicts a later statement of yours that "..actual 'buy' prices for a low miler '02 745i will be...barely a deuce higher than a comparably equipped '02 LS430." (Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Either a 7 Series '02 Bimmer does or does not cost more to buy than a Lex LS430. "Barely a deuce" is a significant amount of money. In the data I presented earlier, the spread was far more than $2000. )
Proof: Look at my post above. I present Edmunds data for 2002 for private party transactions (the middle category they offer), the BMW is significantly more money. If you disagree, you will have to argue with the Edmunds methodology.
Yes, everyone agrees that the 2002 7 Series has an awful reputation. Apparently (and surprisingly) it has not hurt resale.
#9975 of 24726 Re: Lets Slice the Data Another Way [blckislandguy]
Aug 02, 2005 (7:41 pm)
Resale value retention is usually based on percent of MSRP retained and not actual dollars. In that vain the LS is pretty far ahead of the 7-series. In actual dollars it's the 7-series. In the end your measurement is purely what you have to part with in the bank account and I see your point fully. The original buyer cares about dollars lost, the used buyer couldn't care less about the original buyers lost value. He wants to hold the car and by the time he's done they are all worth the same anyway.
#9976 of 24726 Re: Toyota still stampeding [ljflx]
Aug 02, 2005 (8:07 pm)
You better not go look over on the RX330 board, they are full of rattle complaints.
Oh, and shift quality complaints, engine noise comlaints, wind noise complaints....do I need to continue?
#9977 of 24726 Re: Just for the heck of it here's the next level down [greenbelt]
Aug 02, 2005 (9:13 pm)
I still feel you are looking at this the 'old fashioned' way, in that companies operate by designing and building what they think a product should be for a particular segment. That's bassackwards in plainspeak.
Companies that operate the way you suggest these days struggle to hold customers. The Euros all do this. They've got that old fashioned German scientist engineer thing down pat where they think they know what's best for the customer. Unfortunately, this kind of rocket science has got them in a lot of trouble.
Companies that design cars that their customers buy in droves are in fact designing and building exactly what the market wants, not what they think the market needs. The measure of success is the money they make, the share they gain, the positive press they receive.
Companies that are in trouble financially are failing to make what the market wants.
I think you're taking my post out of context. What I mean is that every luxury car maker has their theory or idea as to what a luxury car should be, not that they should dictate what the market gets. All car companies listen to their customers in varying degress, but there are differences.
What Lexus thinks a car should driver, look and feel like is their philosphy at work, ditto for Audi, BMW, Mercedes and every other brand here. If every brand had the same ideas we have a bunch of Lexus like cars or all BMW type cars. I didn't say that MB or anyone else dictates what type of car the customer should have, rather its that each brand has a take on the luxury car theme.
Also, if Lexus' way was so superior they'd be the bestselling car in every class don't you think? Yet they're far from it. The ES plays a game no one else is playing, the GS and IS have always had a hard time staying popular so obviously Lexus either doesn't listen to their customers, or they aren't giving what the market wants, going by your theory. The LS has a good take on the idea of what most would consider an ideal luxury car, plus being priced below its main compeitition equals a hit.
Why do you think MB dumped its boss this week? Because the board thinks the cars don't handle right or ride right? No, I think he failed to realize the hole he had dug and couldn't get them out of it. New management was needed before this turns into their own Little Big Horn
I agree with you here, had nothing to do with car design. He was let go because MB has been tarnished badly under his reign, mainly because of quality problems, which isn't what I'm talking about above.
#9978 of 24726 Re: Lost in all the shuffle [ljflx]
Aug 02, 2005 (9:23 pm)
Now Merc has always overstated my use of the business end - stating that you walk in and buy a Lexus because of Toyota's bottom line. My point has always been that negative press can and sometimes does affect a buyers decision. Business people who can't possibly miss these stories are heavy buyers of lux goods. When you read a lot about quality problems, see proof of it in surveys everywhere plus in underlying financials it makes you think. Then when you read many stories about European manufacturing problems beyond autos it makes you realize this is deeper and more widespread.
Far too much of a reach here I think. Most people don't look anywhere near this deep into financials about a car company when they want the car. A luxury car purchase is just as much of a "I want" purshase as anything else, likely more so for some people. I won't argue for a min that bad press about reliability hurts, but this stuff about financials and other irrelevant things don't mean a thing to the average buyer. Some of business savy people might stay away, but if they aren't is isn't showing up yet and hasn't in years of bad press about MB in particular. They're sales are steadily rising with each new product introduction and there no credible evidence to support this claim about financials having people give this big pause about buying an MB. Reliability worries? For sure, I see posts all over Edmunds saying just that, but I haven't seen one yet (other than from a Toyota/Lexus who in all honesty wouldn't buy a German car anyway, particularly a MB) that mentions financials as the reason they aren't buying a MB or any other troubled car company. There is simply no evidence to support the theory of the average buyer not buying a car from a company just because it troubled financially. Now if you're Isuzu or someone in danger of going out of business its different, but no brand we talk about here is anywhere near that status.
#9979 of 24726 Re: Just for the heck of it here's the next level down [ctsang]
Aug 02, 2005 (9:31 pm)
Why does one want to buy all their cars from the same company thoughout one's lifetime?
Same reason why one keeps buying Lexuses over and over, because they like what the brand offers. My point was the MB/BMW has more choice. Didn't say that someome should do this, I said that they could if they wanted too and they wouldn't have to buy the same boring sedan over and over.
There it goes again, among the cars that Lexus offer, they beat MB class for class. So don't compare cars Lexus does not make i.e. AMG car lines. I even bet you: if Lexus makes cars costing $100K or more in the future, they will still beat MB class for class.
Lexus isn't even close to beating MB class for class. The SC430 got beat by the previous generation CLK430 and the current SL500, the GS may be scoring a point victory in the mags over the E-Class now, but the E crushes the GS in the every important (at least here it is) sales race. The LS manages to beat the S430, and has never beat the S500 in any comparo I've seen. Lexus doesn't beat MB class for class in sales either when you look at the numbers, only the LS beats the S-Class when you match sedans to sedans. MB kill Lexus in the 2-door coupe/roadster classes about as much as Lexus does the same to MB in the SUV class when it comes to sales.
So I'm not sure where you got this from about Lexus beating MB class for class. No other import maker sells a fwd luxury car like the ES.
#9980 of 24726 Re: Toyota still stampeding [ljflx]
Aug 02, 2005 (9:34 pm)
I know - virtually no discounting vs huge discounts and they have their best sales month in history.
I guess all the commercials about Toyota's various sales are considered "virtually no discouting". Do you seriously think Toyota doesn't discount their cars in order to help sell them? Sure they aren't giving them away like GM/Ford/Chysler, but to say virtually no discouting is ignoring the obvious.
This thing about Toyotas/Lexus not having any problems is way overblown at this point. See the other boards, if anything the posts seem to be growing about various problems with certain Lexus vehicles and didn't Lexus slip in one of these recent surveys?
#9981 of 24726 Re: Toyota still stampeding [oac]
Aug 02, 2005 (9:35 pm)
Another factor may be the lingering weakness of the US$ vs the Yen as well as the Euro. Imported cars command more $.