Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#9962 of 24726 Lets Slice the Data Another Way
Aug 01, 2005 (5:45 pm)
Over the weekend I went to Montreal. Nice trip, about 6 hours or so from RI blasting along the Vermont-a-bahn at 85 MPH plus. (If you went any slower Andre in his Peterbilt with Quebec plates would nerf you out of the way. In any case, how many Vermont State Troopers do you think they really have on duty in the whole state at any one time? Four?)
On the road my mind drifted to high end luxury sedans. I thought lets forget about depreciation, deltas, brand dimunition, etc. and just think like an ordinary guy with a few bucks in his pocket who wants a high end sedan for trips just like the one I was on. How much is it going to cost to get into one? Maybe to keep the cost down we'll look at a used one with normal equipment and miles. Take a look at the chart below using 2002 figures:
MAKE Edmunds Private Party Sale
JAG XJ 21371
JAG VandePLas 27189
LEX LS430 36958
MB S430 35436
MB S500 39556
Wow! Afterall the talk about i Drive and what an impossible imposition it is, a 2002 BMW 7 Series is the most expensive. By far. This is the car that everyone bashes yet the secondary market pays up for ?? What gives? Afterall all the talk about rotten MB quality, you are still on the hook for 35 to 39 large for a 2002 S series. The Jag data has been commented on a dozen times and the Lexus figures can be read in different ways. (They hold their value as a percent of new MSRP vs. why buy a used Lexus when you can get into an equally used MB Series?, etc.)
Maybe the sleeper is Jaguar. The resale is awful. BUT, as the average guy in this example would you rather a new design 2004 Jag XJ sedan for $39046 (Edmunds Private Party) or a MB/LEXUS with two more winters and 30,000 more miles on it for the same price? I think if I were going to put a lot of interstate miles on a car I'd opt either for a 2002 MB S430 or a 2004 XJ.
Aug 01, 2005 (6:12 pm)
As we were getting ready to either get a bmw wagon or lexus H, last Saturday we were in both dealerships....We ended up with bmw as Lexus interior left something to be desired imo...While in bme shop I checked out the interior of the 7..Not to fond of exterior....One thing I particularly liked was the seat, as the top quarter of the back sort of tilted in or out...They were far more comfortable than my ls seats.....I would suggest everyone really check out the Mercedes and BMW and Lexus, if they are really interested in improvements...Of course I didn`t even know about some of the things that have been done in the last few years as I haven`t been in to check the hardware out...As everything is subjective, I only mention the seats as that is important to me on a long trip.... Tony
#9964 of 24726 Re: Lets Slice the Data Another Way [blckislandguy]
Aug 01, 2005 (7:19 pm)
To clarify - you mean how much will a 2002 cost a buyer in a private party sale.
I was looking at how much retention value there was from the original MSRP for the original buyer when I did this. If you used a LS430 ultra - which is probably the right car to use - its' cost would be noticably higher than the Benz at around $43K. The initial MSRP's of both the ultra LS and the 745LI are about $71 on the Lexus and $77 (not sure of exact Bimmer price) on the 745LI. I'd never even think of buying the MB after 3 years. It's reliability is killing it's resale value which is why the price is so low. The Lexus would be very desirable for the exact opposite reason. The 7 is probably noticably higher up on the totem pole than an S because of its sportier heritage I'd assume. There is also less supply as the S outsold it by about 20-25% when new. I think BMW is definitely the premier used German car after three years. Used car buyers are nnot interested in paying the price of status that isn't backed by reliability. But they'll stioll pay for sport. At some point in the near future BMW will become the premier new German car if MB doesn't get its act together soon. I didn't realize Jag dropped that rapidly. That is horrendous.
#9967 of 24726 Re: Toyota still stampeding [oac]
Aug 02, 2005 (4:50 pm)
Toyota's CEO was making noises about a month or two ago about giving Ford and GM some breathing room. The idea is that if the domestics run into serious trouble, there could be a political backlash against Toyota.
The Koreans don't have to worry as much because they have smaller market share.
#9968 of 24726 Re: Toyota still stampeding [oac]
Aug 02, 2005 (5:17 pm)
I know - virtually no discounting vs huge discounts and they have their best sales month in history. On top of that it is the fourth time this year they've now made that statement. So in 7 months of 2005 they have their top 4 US sales months in history - and they made $13bln net last year when exchange rates were worse and sales were lower. That's a juggernaut in every sense of the word. I'm glad I'm not their competition - in any segment. They just have too much quality. A NY sportscaster - Mike francesca on WFAN - refused to right off the Houston Astros when they were a dozen games under 500 because they had too much pitching. Likewise Toyota is just too much quality and value at this point in time. The bad side of this is that it allows for higher prices.
#9969 of 24726 Re: Toyota still stampeding [ljflx]
Aug 02, 2005 (6:11 pm)
I bought my first Toyota in 20 years last year. I would not have bought it had it been for the generous rebates. It's a great vehicle if I ignore some of the rattles/squeaks and some other issues. The rebates bought the quality/value ratio down to a factor I could live with. In a certain sense, they are just as overpriced as their German counterparts. But I enjoy driving the German competition.
I would not pay MSRP+ for any car.
#9970 of 24726 Re: Lets Slice the Data Another Way [ljflx]
Aug 02, 2005 (6:37 pm)
Yes, I was looking at how much Joe average with a little bit of cash would have to spend to get into a late model (i.e, 2002) high end sedan for summer trips.
Sorry, Edmunds doesn't give data for 2002 Lexus LS430 Ultras.
I think you have identified nicely how a high end car retains value: it its unique selling proposition (thank you David Oglivy for the concept) , e. g., reliability, sport, status, design holds up, its resale will be good. That notion explains the resale of Lexus and BMW.
One thing holding up the MB resale is the perceived status in owning one. But even that is weakening. Forty years ago, when a guy made Sergeant First Class (E-7) or better, he bought himself a Caddy or a Deuce-and-a-quarter ( a Buick 225). The thing would be standing tall, shined like a pair of jump boots. I suspect that if you drove past the 82nd Airborne's NCO Club tonight you would see more BMWs and Lexus out back than MBs.
#9971 of 24726 Re: Toyota still stampeding [syswei]
Aug 02, 2005 (6:51 pm)
Aha.... that explains it.... Toyota is trying to slow their sales down to help their competition.... I am wondering if there is any other industry segment that such will happen. That a juggernaut decides to *purnish* itself to help its competition !!! Could this be cultural or purely business ? cos I doubt a German company will do that if in the same situation.