Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#938 of 24723 I agree with Denniswade
Mar 22, 2001 (7:49 pm)
Guys we're talking about automobiles here. Not the national defense or the cure for cancer or anything as vitally important as that. I drive the 2001 S500 with the AMG Sports package and I'm happier than a gay man in the federal penitentiary! lol ( and no I'm no where near being gay guys..) I will not knock the LS430 because I was a half prayer away from buying it and saving the 15k or so I spent. But for the life of me, regardless of the drag coefficient and the nice toys and enough wood in the interior to panel a large motoryacht, I just couldn't force myself to like the exterior body style. I own a Lexus GS, and I'm seriously considering the new SC430 which I think is a beautiful car!! I think Lexus has done more to shake up the automotive industry in the last 10 years than anyone has done since Henry Ford started mass production changing the industry forever. But style matters to me as much as content and class. Like I said I own a 99 GS and may purchase the SC430 because they are gorgeous cars and they look like nothing else on the road. There is no mistaking a GS for an E class or a Jaguar S type. There is no mistaking the SC for a CLK or a Porshe. One thing I love is being somewhat unique. IMO the LS430 is a cross between the Avalon and old S class, but so what ? Who cares ? No one's life or livelyhood depends on it except the people who work for Toyota, MB, Jaguar,etc. These are all great cars and to be honest had Lexus been as unique and daring with the LS design as they were with the GS and new SC I would have given them my dead presidents instead of giving them to the Germans. Like Denniswade said, there are more important things to life than who drives the best car. I say let the manufacturers go at it. Let em slug it out until there's blood on the marketing battlefield and teeth and hair flying everywhere!! We the consumers benefit with automobiles that our progenitors couldn't even begin to dream of...whatever we choose to drive
#939 of 24723 Uh, ejerod?
Mar 22, 2001 (8:25 pm)
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
#940 of 24723 ejerod / xjs5
Mar 22, 2001 (8:29 pm)
ejerod - well said - at least on the car part of your post!! SC430 is gorgeous but from what I understand hard to get.
xjs5 - I, for the life of me, can't understand what you are talking about. I could'nt care less what a professional driver thought about a car. I purchase to suit my needs and test drive the cars I'm interested in beforehand. It's pretty easy to form an opinion after a few test drives. I hardly think Benz buyers are arrogant because of their decisions. I almost bought the S-500 and I'd be pretty mad at anyone who would call me arrogant had I done so. On the other hand I don't have any doubt that Mercedes markets status. I would to if I were them, they've been very successful at it for quite some time now. Lexus, BMW and Audi also market status so no big deal there. As for your Toyota for the masses comment - they'd be out of business if that was the case. I just bought my mother a Camry because it is so reliable. She's coming out of a 93 Camry with 93k miles on it. Never a problem with it. The Camry is pretty well made and much improved since 1993 from my viewpoint. Finally on your BMW comment - I drive 110 miles everyday and never encounter a curve I can't easily negotiate with the LS430. In this day and age roads are engineered without hairpin curves. My comment wasn't meant to belittle BMW cars, it was based in the reality of everyday driving.
Mar 22, 2001 (9:52 pm)
You don't have to be a professional driver to understand the difference between an Audi and a Lexus- I'm not a professional driver and the difference is night and day.
It is not arrogant to buy a car- it is arrogant
to think that one bought a Lexus and IN ESSENCE got a Mercedes and saved 15k. If that's true- the Mercedes is cheaper than I thought. The Lexus is
everything the Mercedes is and better for cheaper- except a slight difference in the way it drives is noted. Comparing a RWD luxury tuned Lexus to a RWD luxury tuned Mercedes isn't that different- maybe because Lexus copied so much of Mercedes.
There is a difference between a BMW 7 Series and any Lexus- do you think BMW enthusiasts
are car enthusiasts for nothing?
Yes, Toyota's cars are without ergonomics until you get to the GS. At least there you have a telescoping steering wheel- you can get that on a Jetta. The Camry suspension floats-
the seat is wrong- it's too narrow- it doesn't have enough or the right adjustments- it's holllow, the steering wheel is wrong- it requires the arms to be held up and streched out, the driving position is wrong- the steering wheel is too far away and the seat back has to be too far back to avoid the windshield. Drive an MR2 and sit on the floor with the roof in your forehead if you want to see how much Toyota could care less about it. I didn't say the Camry is unreliable but now that you mention it the Camry suspension has a big time problem going out of alignment and it can't be fixed- I've read 100's of Edmunds posts about it and I've looked at the NHTSA consumer complaints database. This is from the redesign.
All I'm saying is that someone could take a "my car is better, my car is good enough, what your car does well does not matter" approach to most of these cars and trash the others- what BMW owners think about Lexus would not be fit to print.
I really think you miss the point of the 7 Series with comments to the effect that with modern roads you never drive your LS430 off the road- I hope not!
Mar 23, 2001 (8:21 am)
Autoworld Weekly rated the 7-series best in handling, followed by the LS430 and Mercedes, then the Jaguar. Nice of you to choose the BMW to compare the LS430 with, but what about its other competitors?
And as for handling, I agree -- unless the differences are enormous, they are unlikely to be noticed in a car of this class. It's a luxury car, fer cryin out loud, not a sports car. And I definitely prefer the feel of the Lexus to the Mercedes. The Mercedes is just not driver friendly, in my opinion -- the BMW and Lexus are. Dunno about the Audi 'cause I haven't driven it -- but I imagine it's pretty nice.
Mar 23, 2001 (8:44 am)
I drove the Audi - its a very nice car. Handles well but its ride is behind the Lexus and the S-Class. Can't comment on a 7-series because I didn't drive one. I didn't find anything special about the Audi and dismissed it very early. I actually wanted to like this car because of the quattro. The Lexus LS430 beats the pants off of the old LS400 model in virtually everyway and the bodybuild is exceptional. If your comments are tied to the old model than we are not talking the same language here. The new model handles much better than the old.
As for your Toyota comments it sounds like you are pretty bitter about them for whatever reason. I have a Landcruiser and love it though I realize it is not a vehicle for the masses; My mom's Camry is very nice and friends of ours who have Toyotas praise them particularly because of their reliability.
#944 of 24723 That is exactly what I meant...
Mar 23, 2001 (8:50 am)
A strong statement like ".. The Mercedes is just not driver friendly, in my opinion .." At least this time out, the "in my opinion" disclaimer makes it clear.
Still, I think to say a Mercedes S-class is "not driver friendly" is one of those hyper-distorting arguments. I'd be happy as a lark in a Mercedes S-class, and I haven't heard of any ergonomy complaints from owners.
As to handling, the S-class does offer the sports package, and if utter performance is what you're after, they have something called the S55. Nor the Beemer nor the Lex stand up eve remotely to that package when it comes to performance. Fact is that Mercedes does offer far more idividualization of the car than any other brand, which I think a key advantage in this price range. Sure, it'll set you back even more money, but if that's a concern, Mercedes simply does not want your business in some cases. At least not yet.
Given the huge set of options and sub-models, I do think there is little doubt that Mercedes coul be easily labelled by far most driver-friendly. The only caveat is said driver needs to pack about 40 more bills in his wallet. But that's why they call this luxury segment, and if Mercedes can get people to spend more money than they would for other brands, hey - can't blame them. It's market economy at work. Luxury items, even more than others, are never priced on real cost.
#945 of 24723 Market Segments
Mar 23, 2001 (12:35 pm)
I do think that there is a dumb luxury segment and a smart luxury segment....
Mar 23, 2001 (12:46 pm)
Luxury is always dumb, period. It is utterly irrational. The very concept of luxury is utterly based on making cost irrelevant. The genuine luxury market does simply not care about cost, merely about perceived value.
That is basic marketing theory.
#947 of 24723 Market Segments
Mar 23, 2001 (12:53 pm)
I do think that there is a dumb luxury segment and a smart luxury segment....