Ask the Car People.SM


High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 933 of 2473

#9320 of 24723 Re: Failure or not [mariner7] by merc1

May 08, 2005 (10:43 pm)

Replying to: mariner7 (May 08, 2005 6:38 pm)
Am I reading those figures correctly? You mean to tell me that a Lexus actually had a sales drop. Oh my. The Lexus sales machine never stops. Never. Expect those numbers to be spun into the positive somehow.
 
Seriously though and in fairness I hardly see a GS taking away sales of the ES, with the ES being the ultimate blue-hair set ride. If that is truly the case then Lexus really didn't make the GS sporty at all because people I know that have and/or like the ES are as far removed from "driving" as possible. It would a truly awful endorsement of the GS (purpose and image wise) for the ES crowd to like the GS. That would mean the GS isn't a drivers car at all!!
 
 We all know the current IS300 was way past dead even before the new model made the magazine/auto show rounds. Even the few people interested in the current IS probably won't buy it now because the new model has been shown.
 
The GS430 might take a LS430 sale here and there, that is definitely possible because of their relatively close sticker prices. I'm sure ole Lexy will fixt this for 2007 with the new LS being taken of the 60K mark in base form.
 
Also, I can't see Lexus repeating the 1998-2005 GS neglect again. They've already stated that BMW (again) is also the target as far as staggering engine introductions to keep the GS fresh. The German brands have done this since day one, but it took "Lexis" a while to catch on. Expect a GS350 and GS460 for 2007 which should give them some added buzz, but they'll have to keep the intro seperate from the new LS of the same year.
 
M

#9321 of 24723 Merc1 by oac

May 08, 2005 (10:51 pm)

The mid-range luxury-sport sedans of the GS, M, 5-, A6, E350, etc... have different xters. Some are very sporty, some are more luxurious. No car offers everything to the buying public (we've said this before), so each buyer picks what appeals *most* and makes compromises..... The GS is luxury-biased, yet tuned to be sporty as well without compromising the former. The M is sporty-first and has enough luxury features to be at par with the competition. The 5-series is equally sport-biased, and the luxury features are sometimes afterthoughts.... So did Lexus miss with the GS ? I'd say NO. They delivered a car that its target market wanted, a very sporty car, with no compromise on luxury - quietness, refined, build quality, and a gorgeous style to boot. What is not to make the GS successful ? Next year, the GS450h arrives, and maybe the GS350. In MY2008, the GS460 will debut after the LS460 arrives here in MY2007. The staggered releases (a la BMW) will keep the cars fresh, and interest high.
 
It appears that we just see things from two ends - you are a purist in the car, while I see the total picture, and yes that includes the business end. While you want to bash the GS for not meeting its intended promise from Lexus execs, you fail to acknowledge that the car is successful within its intended target buyers. That's what I am saying with sales - the car succeeds. The old M45 was a dud. It bombed so badly, but I give Infiniti kudos for learning their mistakes and coming out with a better product in the new Ms. But, Infiniti is no Lexus. Lexus does not need to beat BMW to be successful, while Infiniti does need something to hang their hat on, and *sporty sedan* is it. Regardless of how well the Ms succeed in the market, they will never dethrone the 5-series in sales volume, unless they increase the variants to match the Bimmer. Neither will the GS, imo, for the same reason.

#9322 of 24723 Oac by merc1

May 08, 2005 (11:00 pm)

Much more balanced. Where we disagree is on the question is who are the GS' intended buyers? Lexus stated that they wanted the 5-Series crowd didn't they? If that is the case the haven't succeeded and aren't even close. Is the GS a success in its own right? Of course it is. Problem is it seems to appeal to the typical Lexus buyer and that didn't carry it far last time. It basically fell off the map after 2 years. You guys like to talk about bad PR, yet the fact that Lexus bascially dated their own cars, especially the GS300 is of no matter. The Germans have always done this staggered engine/model thing, but Lexus felt the need to make mention that the GS will get an engine transplant down the road, at the time of the GS' introduction. Kinda bass-ackwards to me.
 
You mention sales like the car has been on sale for a while, but the truth is that it is far too early to draw any real conclusions about sales so soon after the car's introduction. Strong sales and especially initial sales don't mean that the GS is selling to its "intended buyers". I would say that without a doubt it’s overwhelmingly selling to existing Lexus customers, not BMW converts.
 
M

#9323 of 24723 Re: sales volume [merc1] by brightness04

May 08, 2005 (11:04 pm)

Replying to: merc1 (May 08, 2005 10:22 pm)
> Yes it is true that the 525i and 530i outnumber the 545i on the road, but for them > to cut off the price of the comparo at 55K when the correct V8 models were only > a few more thousand was beyond stupid. Buyers in this segment aren't going to > balk at 3-5K for a V8.
 
IMHO, not including the 545i probably save BMW from some embarassment, since the 545i does not handle as well as the 530i. In any case, they had to draw a line somewhere. Considering that the Infinity M starts at $40k, and Q starts at $56k, the $55k cap is eminently reasonable for "spoilsport sedans." As to whether buyers in this segment balk at the extra $5k for a V8, the overwhelming sales of 525i and 530i show that your assessment is not valid.
 
> The problem here is that you're making excuses for Lexus not having made a 5-> Series fighter like they said upon showing the new GS. We can debate what we > think or consider a sports sedan all day long, but that isn't my point here. The
> point is that the GS isn't a 5-Series competitor in the sport department.
 
The bulk of the 5-series sales is in 525i and 530i. The GS430 beat them quite handily, in comparos. 545i doesn't even handle as well as the 530i . . . Lexus delivered a 5 series fighter as promised, beating 530i (by extension also 525i) in various comparos; that is the bulk of the 5 series sold. I haven't seen a 545i vs. new GS430 yet. The new V8 550i is not offered yet, and Lexus obviously can not offer a competitor to something that does not exist yet.
 
> Actually a I6 5-Series would probably be sportier than the V8 545i in most areas > outside of acceleration
 
That I actually agree. So what does that say about GS430 beating the 530i?? Lexus has done its homework . . . seems to be the obvious answer, that is, if you have any objectivity left.
 
> I hardly think a luxury biased buyer would be a 5-Series in the first place, their
> are better riding cars than the 5 is luxury is your first priority.
 
The highest concentrations of 5 series in the US are to be found in the concrete canyons of the two coasts, not exactly places for exhilerating driving. What the real estate agent wants is the marquee value while carting clients around town in 20mph stop-n-go traffic. BMW 525/535 serves that up in spades.

#9324 of 24723 Re: sales volume [brightness04] by merc1

May 08, 2005 (11:14 pm)

Replying to: brightness04 (May 08, 2005 11:04 pm)
Considering that the Infinity M starts at $40k, and Q starts at $56k, the $55k cap is eminently reasonable for "spoilsport sedans." As to whether buyers in this segment balk at the extra $5k for a V8, the overwhelming sales of 525i and 530i show that your assessment is not valid.
 
But you don't know how many just don't want the V8 or see the need for it as opposed to those who feel that the 545i is too expensive.
 
The bulk of the 5-series sales is in 525i and 530i. The GS430 beat them quite handily, in comparos. 545i doesn't even handle as well as the 530i . . . Lexus delivered a 5 series fighter as promised, beating 530i (by extension also 525i) in various comparos; that is the bulk of the 5 series sold. I haven't seen a 545i vs. new GS430 yet. The new V8 550i is not offered yet, and Lexus obviously can not offer a competitor to something that does not exist yet."
 
Who cares what the bulk of sales are in a comparison test? A comparo is for comparo alike cars, not V6s and V8s. That is silly and we'll never agree there. The 545i beat the GS430 handidly in the June issue of Road and Track. Read it and weep. They clearly state that the real contest of sport is between the M45 and the 545i, not the GS430. Here where sport is the thing they're looking for the GS430 is last.
 
 I don't remember mentioning the 550i, but of course that is coming and Lexus will try (and miss) again with the GS460, but this is just my biased speculation of course.
 
That I actually agree. So what does that say about GS430 beating the 530i?? Lexus has done its homework . . . seems to be the obvious answer, that is, if you have any objectivity left.
 
It says to me that you need to read the article and see what they said about the BMW not having a V8. I don't have the magazine in front of me, but I clearly remember them mentioning power as one of the main gripes and that they may not have ranked the 5-Series where they did, if it had been a V8 model. In most cases a car that is underpowered relative to the other cars in a test isn't going to win, usually. There are exceptions to this of course, but a 6 compared to an V8, you know that wasn't fair and pretty silly considering that none of the cars in the test are "cheap" in the first place.
 
M

#9325 of 24723 Re: Failure or not [merc1] by brightness04

May 08, 2005 (11:15 pm)

Replying to: merc1 (May 08, 2005 10:43 pm)
> They've already stated that BMW (again) is also the target as far as staggering > engine introductions to keep the GS fresh. The German brands have done this
> since day one, but it took "Lexis" a while to catch on.
 
Dosn't this sound just a bit ridiculous? BMW historically had to stagger product introduction due to resource limitation and the need to extend product cycle (to recoupe R&D cost). And that was mostly in the 3-series compact cars, not the mid-size, which historically were usually introduced all at once, with a mid-cycle refresh, which shall we argue was copied from Toyota and Honda mid-size cars?? What's are our Deutschphiles to spin next? If Lexus reliability drops in the future, are we going to hear the Germans did that first too and Lexus only learned to make crap cars to fatten the parts department?

#9326 of 24723 Re: Failure or not [brightness04] by merc1

May 08, 2005 (11:20 pm)

Replying to: brightness04 (May 08, 2005 11:15 pm)
BMW historically had to stagger product introduction due to resource limitation and the need to extend product cycle (to recoupe R&D cost). And that was mostly in the 3-series compact cars, not the mid-size, which historically were usually introduced all at once, with a mid-cycle refresh, which shall we argue was copied from Toyota and Honda mid-size cars?? What's are our Deutschphiles to spin next? If Lexus reliability drops in the future, are we going to hear the Germans did that first too and Lexus only learned to make crap cars to fatten the parts department?
 
Dosn't this sound just a bit ridiculous?
 
Yes the above does and it really didn't make any sense. Not really response worthy.
 
M

#9327 of 24723 Re: sales volume [merc1] by brightness04

May 08, 2005 (11:29 pm)

Replying to: merc1 (May 08, 2005 11:14 pm)
> But you don't know how many just don't want the V8 or see the need for it as
> opposed to those who feel that the 545i is too expensive.
 
Don't want or not seeing the need for is the marketting equivalent of "balking at." With the flood of free money from the FED nowadays, anyone with a paying job can afford to ride in an LS, S or 7 nowadays, whether people actually do it is all that matters as far as the companies are concerned.
 
> Who cares what the bulk of sales are in a comparison test? A comparo is for
> comparo alike cars, not V6s and V8s.
 
Bulk of the sales is all that matters: the bulk of 5 series sales is 525 and 530, so a competitor to 5 series has to be able to compete against these two models. What more need to be said? Porsche fields 6-cylinder in comparisons to other manufacturers' V8 all the time, and those comparos are often far more loaded on sports as opposed to luxury. Comparos should be about comparable price level. If BMW thinks its I6 cars can compete with other makers' V8 at the same price level, let them.
 
> The 545i beat the GS430 handidly in the June issue of Road and Track. Read it > and weep.
 
What's there to weep? Didn't you just say 545i is better handling in 530i in just about any category aside from linear accelearation? So R&T biased towards linear accelearation, big deal . . . NOT.
 
> I clearly remember them mentioning power as one of the main gripes and that
> they may not have ranked the 5-Series where they did, if it had been a V8
> model.
 
You only have BMW to blame for pricing the 545i at a level comparable to Q and LS. With the coming end of existing currency hedges, BMW is going to face even more difficult competitive issues in the coming months.

#9328 of 24723 Re: Failure or not [merc1] by brightness04

May 08, 2005 (11:31 pm)

Replying to: merc1 (May 08, 2005 11:20 pm)
> Yes it does and it really didn't make any sense. Not really response worthy.
 
Then why did you respond at all? Oh, yah, thank you for admitting that your initial post made no sense.

#9329 of 24723 Re: sales volume [brightness04] by merc1

May 08, 2005 (11:37 pm)

Replying to: brightness04 (May 08, 2005 11:29 pm)
Don't want or not seeing the need for is the marketting equivalent of "balking at." With the flood of free money from the FED nowadays, anyone with a paying job can afford to ride in an LS, S or 7 nowadays, whether people actually do it is all that matters as far as the companies are concerned.
 
I'll be awaiting some of this "free money". You're grasping here, really. My point about the 545i vs its cheaper siblings is that you don't know for sure what the reason for its lower sales are. I'm sure price is a factor for someone looking at a 525i. We can only guess, but my point is that C&D isn't a market research firm, they're auto testers and they should know better. If you aren't going to compare similar cars then whats the point. The market prefers the ES330 and 3-Series in huge numbers too, doesn't make them "competitors".
 
Porsche doesn't offer a V8 sports car and their situation relative to their competition is like totally irrelevant. Sports cars like the 911 and its competitors line up even worse when looking at price. Totally irrelevant bringing up Porsche.
 
What's there to weep? Didn't you just say 545i is better handling in 530i in just about any category aside from linear accelearation? So R&T biased towards linear accelearation, big deal . . . NOT.
 
Plenty. It proves my point about the GS430 not being the 5-Series competitior as a sports sedan, like I stated at the beginning. Read the article. No I didn't say the 545i was better in handling over the 530i. You've got it backwards. I clearly stated that the 530i is likely better handling than 545i because of less weight. Please go back and read the post. You tried to imply that it made no difference as to whether the 530i or 545i was compared to the GS430, yet when the right car is compared (545i) to the GS430, the GS430 gets beat, when sport sedans are the topic. Kinda destroys that extension theory. The R&T article isn't biased towards acceleration either. They looked at far more than just acceleration and I think you know Road and Track isn't that type of magazine. You know they use a scoring system and a car could do 0-60 in 3 secs and still not win overall. I suspect you know this. You stated that you hadn't seen the 545i vs. the GS430 yet so you should probably read the article first.
 
M

Messages Page 933 of 2473

To POST a message, please Sign In.

Advertisement

Browse by Category

Browse by Vehicle
   View All Vehicles

Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
View All Topics

Edmunds Community

Advertisement