Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#9304 of 24726 Re: sales volume [kdshapiro]
May 08, 2005 (5:09 am)
> BMW is still the benchmark, when respect to the drive. I can't remember the last > time I heard some manufacturer saying I want my car to drive better than
> a "GS".
> Selling more does not make one better, it just gives one more sales.
> MacDonalds sells billions and billions, yet it is better than Outback at burgers?
Hmm . . . the last time I checked, BMW still outsells Lexus in this sporty luxury segment. The reason why BMW has been considered a benchmark, since circa early-1990's, is its volume and ability to maintain profit margin (ie. maintaining Porsche/Ferrari like image, yet moving cars like Chevy at the same time; doing better financially than all three). Nobody was interested in benchmarking against BMW when it was just a "poor man's Mercedes" back in the 70's and early 80's even though the 2002 was quite a fun car, nobody was interested in emulating.
> After driving a BMW, I realize how much I enjoy their interiors compared to the
> other manufacturers. They have it nailed.
But now they are flattening the cockpit that has been such a central piece of BMW interior for three decades!
#9305 of 24726 Re: Interesting new suspension from Bose [greenbelt]
May 08, 2005 (7:18 am)
Greenbelt, that article is absolutely fascinating, thanks! The video was quite convincing. As for your question as to who he'll be working with, toward the end he is quoted as saying "Within the next six to ten months, I'll be in a position to select a manufacturer, only one, to team with. We have to focus on its perfection." IMHO, better than 50% chance that one company will be Lexus.
#9306 of 24726 Re: Failure or not [mariner7]
May 08, 2005 (8:47 am)
LS and GS are entirely different cars aimed at different market segments. If the GS cannibalizes the ES I doubt anyone at Lexus would mind. But they too are entirely different cars/markets and I doubt there is any cannibalization going on. You had a ton of pent-up demand for the GS and the LS is coming off some real high sale months a year ago when it had its refreshing. It's on its normal track to sell 30K cars.
#9307 of 24726 Re: sales volume [kdshapiro]
May 08, 2005 (10:27 am)
Selling more does not make one better, it just gives one more sales. MacDonalds sells billions and billions, yet it is better than Outback at burgers?
Typical excuse.... Remind me once again why these companies are in the business of making these cars ? I guess selling zillions of MBs and BMWs all over the world has not helped their prestige or financial status either, right ? Oh I forget, the real McD's have to be MBs and BMWs since they sell far more luxury cars/trucks than Lexus, so ...
May 08, 2005 (4:14 pm)
I was reading where the new 360 hp BMW 750 i can run 0-60 mph in 5.8 seconds.
Isn't the LS 430 supposed to run at 5.9 with less than 300 hp?
#9309 of 24726 Re: 0-60 times [topspin628]
May 08, 2005 (4:54 pm)
I think the LS has a weight advantage.
#9310 of 24726 Re: Failure or not [ljflx]
May 08, 2005 (5:38 pm)
"You had a ton of pent-up demand for the GS and the LS is coming off some real high sale months a year ago"
If you're right, that doesn't bode well for GS and LS either. Because GS sales will fall sharply when the pent-up demand is satisfied. And it means LS is running out of steam just 1 year after freshening.
Take a look at these stats, it's a classic a case of cannibalization as you can get. 04/05 units, 04/04 units, % change
Lexus cars (ex SC)
ES 5597 6460 -17
LS 2398 2704 -15
GS 3198 522 513
IS 454 884 -50
Total 11647 10570 0
Infiniti cars (ex I & Q)
Gsedan 3275 2896 9
Gcoupe 2556 2532 0
M 2288 168 1211
Total 8119 5596 45
GS increases by 513%, but Lexus cars increases by 0%. If it's not cannibalization, it's quite a coincidence all other cars tank when GS comes into the scene. BTW, it's exactly the same picture in March.
Note Lexus cars outsold Infiniti about 90% in April 04. That was cut down in half to 43% last month. G has very long legs, still setting records 4 years after debut. I'd think the same of M. detnews reported new G & Altima are coming in 2006.
#9311 of 24726 Re: sales volume [brightness04]
May 08, 2005 (6:01 pm)
I had always understood that the 5 was a "benchmark" car for the total package of handling prowess and daily driver luxury and practicality. I've been bamboozled. It turns out it was all about the corporate numbers, all along! Drivability be damned.
My impression all along has been that the traditional European marques spent decades building good drivers cars that were safe and luxurious, and that through the years, they got better at it to where high profits and sales numbers became part of the equation as well. Then, about 15 years ago, the producers of Japanese economy cars decided they too wanted a piece of the action, and wanted to be players in a game that's been going on for a long, long time. Their offerings satisfy a great deal of the folks who can afford to play, and that's fine. I think what makes a small number of us dedicated German Car Fans is that there is a specific FEEL to their cars that is rooted in culture, tradition, and a sense of enthusiasm that can't just be cloned in every facet of a car, just to get a cut of the dollars to be had. Let Toyota sell to their hearts content, "world domination" and all.
"try it again, grasshopper, this time...with FEELING..."
#9312 of 24726 Re: Failure or not [mariner7]
May 08, 2005 (6:19 pm)
2400 units for the LS is right on the mark for a 30K annual figure. I doubt there is any cannibalization going on. They will sell around 30K units. They have been in the 30-36k range sInce 2001. Their original annual goal for the car was 25k units. I also doubt GS sales will slacken. If anything they will accelerate. .As for the ES - the two cars are night and day in looks, performance and price and it's hard to fathom they would attract the same buyer given those character and demographic differentiations. On top of that you can hardly make a case of cannibalization from one or two months worth of sales data anyway and you need to look a lot further than sales if you want to make a case. One place to start is checking the inventory days of the LS and ES vs one year ago. If they're static than it's a production issue. I guarantee you Lexus pushed production capacity in favor of the GS to meet its anticipated demand. I'm afraid you are reading far too much into this.
#9313 of 24726 Re: Failure or not [mariner7]
May 08, 2005 (6:33 pm)
"If you're right, that doesn't bode well for GS and LS either. Because GS sales will fall sharply when the pent-up demand is satisfied. And it means LS is running out of steam just 1 year after freshening. "
The LS may be in it's 1st year after freshening, but it's midway thru it's 5th model year. And even at 2,XXX units per month, it's selling strongly.
I don't think GS sales will fall sharply next year for example or the year after. They have the GS450h coming to keep demand up. As well as a new V8 and possibly a replacement or a additional 3.5L V6, probably in 2007.