Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
May 08, 2005 (2:34 am)
What is it that the GS has failed at? Maybe they failed to make a car you would want, but that's about it as far as being a "failure". Lexus aspires for the brand to be perceived as more sporty like BMW, but when did anyone at the company ever promise to make a GS that would "out-sport" the 5? Please show us a quote stating such a goal, because the only GS goal I have seen in print was this:
"Traditionally, Mercedes and BMW have been the class leaders in sales, consistently maintaining an 18-percent-or-better share of market. Our goal, with the GS is to join the leaders near the front of the pack with an annual share-of-segment of more than 14 percent, while achieving an annual sales rate of about 33,000 units. That's a bold statement and a bold move from our 2004 sales rate of 8,200 units and five-percent share of segment." - Mark Templin, Lexus Vice President, Marketing - March 24, 2005 - New York Auto Show
From the April numbers they are making decent progress. The GS as I stated previously trailed the segment-leading 5 by 30% in April. The ML trailed the RX (not counting hybrid versions) by 58%, which you said "Doesn't mean its a failure"...yet the GS to you is a failure??? And just a few posts ago you called yourself unbiased and objective?
#9298 of 24726 Failure or not
May 08, 2005 (3:17 am)
I guess it all depends on what Lexus meant when they said "5 fighter". If they meant they wanted to challenge the 5 in terms of sport alone, some people might consider it a failure. If they meant that they wanted to steal sales from the 5, then the verdict is not in, yet, but it looks promising. I wonder, though, if Lexus won't end up cannibalizing some of its own sales of the LS and ES.
Personally, I like the GS. It looks much better in real life than in pictures. I happen to think the Infiniti M looks better, though, and that is MHO. While others may disagree, the 5 looks fabulous and still turns my head (I like the controversial look of the 7, too).
The really interesting thing will be to see year-over-year sales one year from now. While the Infiniti can't be compared as it is a completely new vehicle (although as a percentage increase in sales, this would make it the hands-down winner).
#9299 of 24726 Re: Failure or not [docnukem]
May 08, 2005 (4:07 am)
"Lexus won't end up cannibalizing some of its own sales of the LS and ES."
I'd argue that's happening. If you look at sales figures for March and April, GS increases greatly, but LS, ES and IS all had double digit decreases for both months. If you look at overall Lexus sedan sales, they stay pretty much the same as 2004, in spite of GS. It seems like you have a set of owners who have to have a Lexus, and they decide to buy the shiniest, brightest model.
The picture is different at Infiniti. M is selling way over projections, 40% is what I read. And for both months, G sedan had record sales.
It's a long battle between these two though, the first two months of six, seven years.
#9300 of 24726 Interesting new suspension from Bose
May 08, 2005 (4:35 am)
Maybe this has already been discussed on this board. A friend told me to look at this link in automobile magazine. Does anyone know who Bose is working with besides Lexus? It's interesting to see electronics move further and further into the infrastructure of automobiles.
Seems like to me that this kind of suspension could go a long way towards eliminating the difference between 'sport sedans' and 'luxury sedans', particularly if one had some kind of control over the settings.
#9301 of 24726 Re: sales volume [merc1]
May 08, 2005 (4:48 am)
> except C&D with tested a puny 530i like boneheads
The blame lies with BMW not C&D. 525 and 530 far outnumber 545 on the road. For the amount of money involved, 530 not 545 was the only thing BMW was willing to sell you. C&D explained as much. It's either boneheaded of BMW to charge too much for 545i, or boneheaded of the reader who glosses over the explanation.
> I'm sorry if you're not able to understand that a nice nav systems/stereo and
> isolation aren't what make a sports sedan.
These are not sports sedans, I'm sorry if you are not able to understand that. These are sporty luxury sedans. There are sedans that are far more sporty and cost far less than the 5 series (WRX-STi and Lance Evo come to mind), the likes of which BMW 5 series can not begin to compete unless luxury is a priority consideration. Different people have different takes on their preference on a sporty luxury sedan. By the simple ratio of 525/530 : 545 sold, it should be obvious that most BMW 5 series buyers are more interested in luxury than sportiness.
#9302 of 24726 Re: sales volume [brightness04]
May 08, 2005 (4:57 am)
I agree about the sport on the WRX and EVO. If you are comparing on sport only, then the WRX wins, but as soon as you want luxury, these cars fail miserable compared to any luxo or even entry level luxo car.
BMW is still the benchmark, when respect to the drive. I can't remember the last time I heard some manufacturer saying I want my car to drive better than a "GS".
After driving a BMW, I realize how much I enjoy their interiors compared to the other manufacturers. They have it nailed.
Selling more does not make one better, it just gives one more sales. MacDonalds sells billions and billions, yet it is better than Outback at burgers?
#9303 of 24726 and ...
May 08, 2005 (5:07 am)
we're talking about High End Luxury Marques here, so strictly sport sedans aren't relevant in this particular discussion.
#9304 of 24726 Re: sales volume [kdshapiro]
May 08, 2005 (5:09 am)
> BMW is still the benchmark, when respect to the drive. I can't remember the last > time I heard some manufacturer saying I want my car to drive better than
> a "GS".
> Selling more does not make one better, it just gives one more sales.
> MacDonalds sells billions and billions, yet it is better than Outback at burgers?
Hmm . . . the last time I checked, BMW still outsells Lexus in this sporty luxury segment. The reason why BMW has been considered a benchmark, since circa early-1990's, is its volume and ability to maintain profit margin (ie. maintaining Porsche/Ferrari like image, yet moving cars like Chevy at the same time; doing better financially than all three). Nobody was interested in benchmarking against BMW when it was just a "poor man's Mercedes" back in the 70's and early 80's even though the 2002 was quite a fun car, nobody was interested in emulating.
> After driving a BMW, I realize how much I enjoy their interiors compared to the
> other manufacturers. They have it nailed.
But now they are flattening the cockpit that has been such a central piece of BMW interior for three decades!
#9305 of 24726 Re: Interesting new suspension from Bose [greenbelt]
May 08, 2005 (7:18 am)
Greenbelt, that article is absolutely fascinating, thanks! The video was quite convincing. As for your question as to who he'll be working with, toward the end he is quoted as saying "Within the next six to ten months, I'll be in a position to select a manufacturer, only one, to team with. We have to focus on its perfection." IMHO, better than 50% chance that one company will be Lexus.
#9306 of 24726 Re: Failure or not [mariner7]
May 08, 2005 (8:47 am)
LS and GS are entirely different cars aimed at different market segments. If the GS cannibalizes the ES I doubt anyone at Lexus would mind. But they too are entirely different cars/markets and I doubt there is any cannibalization going on. You had a ton of pent-up demand for the GS and the LS is coming off some real high sale months a year ago when it had its refreshing. It's on its normal track to sell 30K cars.