Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#9283 of 24726 Re: The best? [oac]
May 07, 2005 (1:07 pm)
I drove the M35 (so called) "luxury" and M45 sport and found the suspensions on both to be quite punishing. I could not get used to the busy display in front of me and I hated the rosewood-looked like thin cardboard. The engine drone would prove quite tiring once the novelty wore off. And now all those complaints on the M board. I don't think so! Also, the M looks too much like an Altima but I actually prefer the look of the Altima! As a matter of fact I prefer Nissan designs to every corresponding Infiniti! The Murano looks much better to me than the FX.
I'll be in Bermuda for a few days "smelling the roses" but when I get back I have an appointment to drive the new 330i and after that I will call Lexus for another drive of the GS 430.
You know, my instincts tell me one could probably make a great deal on an LS 430 this summer.
Although, I am used to driver's cars having BMW 3 series since 1993.
In mid-July, I will see what the leases look like. Perhaps Lexus will come down quite a bit from MSRP on the GS 430 at that time. I wouldn't want to pay more than $750 per month with tax included.
And before I forget, I do like how the new GS looks.
#9285 of 24726 Re: sales volume [oac]
May 07, 2005 (2:04 pm)
Hey you can try as you might, but you can't run around the fact that Lexus fingered BMW as the target, and that means a sports sedan. All the profit and sales talk won't erase that Lexus said that the 5-Series (the standard or former standard as a "sports sedan" in the class) was their competition and that on that front it doesn't cut it. Period. Who says? The press has every since it came to market. You'll notice that in tests where sport wasn't the main criteria, the GS did well, like in the Automobile and Edmunds test, but in test where Sport was more of a factor, like in the Road and Track and C&D reviews it got put behind the real sports sedans in the segment the M45 and 545i (except C&D with tested a puny 530i like boneheads). I'm sorry if you're not able to understand that a nice nav systems/stereo and isolation aren't what make a sports sedan.
"Methinks the utlimate competition is in the bottomline, afterall BOTH companies are in the business to make money not just to compete against each other."
That reads like a grand excuse for them not making a sports sedan to challenge the rival they themselves mentioned - BMW. Every car company is out to make money and pointing this out here means what? Nothing out of the ordinary.
That many on Edmund's prefer the M45 to the GS430 in terms of sporty handling is NOT an indication that the M is a better car than the GS. IMO, the M45 is better in some areas and short in other areas against the new GS. Same can be said in reverse. What matters is what MOST of the buying public prefer, and that, Merc1, will be determined by the sales volume. Let's wait and see the success factor of both cars in the highly competitive mid-size luxury-sport market before we declare which car is the best.
You seem to misunderstand me here. I didn't say that the M45 was just an outright better car than the GS. I said that the M is a better sports sedan. There is a difference, that is why I said you can't apply that LS400 logic to the meduim segment and call the GS some type of standard because it isn't. So far that would appear to be the M45 as a sports sedan. Weren't you the one that drove the GS and declared that they missed the mark as a sports sedan or am I making that up? You asked the others to explain to you on the IS board what a sports sedan is, yet you seem to have forgotten what all of us said already. As a sports sedan the GS doesn't cut it against the class leaders in the respect. You ask: "BTW, what does it mean to be a 5- fighter ?" Answer: Infiniti M45.
Since you're bent on making excuses for the GS not being a sports sedan like Lexus said they wanted it to be, you'll revert back to "its selling" and "companies are out to make money". Come on guy time to really get a new line here.
If by chance the IS250/300 don't stack up to the class leaders as a sports sedan, currently the 3-Series and G35, will you say the same thing about the IS too? I mean Lexus is saying the same thing about the IS as they said about the GS: Target = BMW. Yet it means nothing to you as long as the car sells and Lexus makes money. Forget the design brief and/or competition. Amazing denial.
Didn't your guy Clements say that they're staggering engine introductions to be like BMW? So the GS can be in the press throughout the production cycle? Their target in the two lower segments is BMW, not Mercedes.
No one said the car is a failure or anything close to it. It just isn't the sports sedan Lexus promised. Big difference. I mean seriously you don't see the difference here. Read the Automobile compar in which the A6, GS and E placed in that order because they weren't looking for sport as much. Ditto for Edmunds. Then look at C&D and Road and Track. Especially Road and Track. They state that after a while they knew the real sports sedan battle was going to be between the 545i and the M45, not the GS430.
#9286 of 24726 Re: sales volume [ljflx]
May 07, 2005 (2:23 pm)
You seem to have missed the point by a country mile here. A sedan's length doesn't deterimine how sporty or what the design brief is. The 5 is the same length and the M is longer and they both more sporting DNA so I don't understand what length has to do with anything here? Are you saying that Lexus isn't capable of making a car of this size sporty enough to match the class leaders in that area? The M45 in particular is both longer and heavier than the GS430 it utterly destroys it as a sports sedan so I guess your theory about length making the GS430 a "family sedan" is correct, but all yours. There certainly is no industry standard anything like that. To make it worse the M45 is even roomier than the GS430 too. I'd say that you're doing more than generalizing though, there is no way to know what 90 percent of the drivers in this segment want.
I must say that was very clever of you to throw MB in there though.
May 07, 2005 (2:47 pm)
One thing that is going unsaid on this board, (maybe because I am the only one who thinks it) or because I have an LS and really like the Lexus product but I have always loved the look of the Mercedes S better then the LS....NOW
Having seen the new GS...The Mercedes look seems dated to me...Maybe I have seen it and liked it for so many years now that I am ready to move on to something different.
Anyone else agree or is it just me....we all do have different tastes
#9288 of 24726 Re: The best? [michael_mattox]
May 07, 2005 (3:03 pm)
Upon biking on my regular route through suburban Tampa streets, I always pass a beautiful 2005 silver S class Mercedes parked in a driveway. No doubt about it. One beautiful car. So graceful. A work of art. It's always in the same place. Could the owner be showing off his trophy car?
Also on my bike route, there are several 2004-2005 LS 430's and I don't care what anyone says-that is one good looking car. I get to pass one in silver and one in white. Both beautiful. My heart races like it used to do when I was a kid on a swing.
But that S class. Wow!
#9289 of 24726 Wimbledon Update
May 07, 2005 (3:30 pm)
Yo... Waiter!! I'll have the Strawberries Sauvignon!!
#9290 of 24726 Re: The best? [hpowders]
May 07, 2005 (3:38 pm)
I can understand that the "M" Infiniti just doesn't appeal to you as simply no one car appeals to everyone. You go on by saying "all those complaints on the M board". Hmmm, there may be one or two complaints from one or a couple of owners, but this is hardly befitting the word "all". Most owners that I am aware of ARE still on their "honeymoon" with their M's, so if you want to continue to put your spin on the car because you don't like it, realize that by saying it doesn't make it so. The M is not for you so simply don't buy it.
With my personal ownership experience now seven weeks including all its gadgets (tech.and journey packages), I can honestly say that the car has been flawless with no squeaks, rattles, malfunctions or issues of any kind. I neither find the ride punishing nor the car loud or harsh in any way, only sporty (strictly MY opinion though).
#9291 of 24726 Re: Wimbledon Update [designman]
May 07, 2005 (4:14 pm)
Stick around. This may just develop into a doubles match.
What a revoltin' development this is!
#9292 of 24726 Re: The best? [carnaught]
May 07, 2005 (4:18 pm)
Well thank you very much for telling me I have the priviledge of not buying the M if I don't like it.
I will take advantage of your generous offer. I won't buy it.
Where's the spin? I listed concrete examples from the M35/45 board of M owners who are having problems with their new M's. Strange odors and mysterious noises requiring engineers from Japan to come to the US. because the crack Infiniti service technicians can't figure out what's wrong.
A blowout after driving for only 2 weeks.
Hey, you can't make this stuff go away. It's right there on the M board unless someone has deleted these experiences.
See M35/M45 post #2564. You're a riot Infiniti! A regular riot!