Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#9042 of 24723 Tony, what if it was 2001?
Apr 21, 2005 (7:53 pm)
Income and educational levels of affluent consumers driving luxury cars
"Fixing Cadillac," Newsweek, May 28, 2001
If you wonder who is behind wheel of luxury cars, here are some interesting statistics:
luxury car median age household income % of college graduation
Mercedes-Benz 52 $186,236 71%
Lexus 50 $151,711 69%
BMW 45 $149,609 69%
Acura 48 $107,261 61%
Lincoln 59 $113,656 49%
Cadillac 62 $106,701 46%
Just found this on a google search.
#9043 of 24723 Re: Tony, what if it was 2001? [00boxsters]
Apr 21, 2005 (8:41 pm)
Interesting stuff, thanks!
#9044 of 24723 Pricing Point
Apr 21, 2005 (9:05 pm)
I see we're back to the same pricing point discussion again. I do think a lower priced car will sell in more volume. Anyone shopping a S500 vs a LS430 will certainly feel the pinch of the pocketbook. I think a better comparo would be S430 sales vs LS430 sales. But even then there is a significant difference. The typical LS sells for less than it's typical $62.7K price, I got mine for 55K. The S430 4 Matic I was shopping was 78K list and they were offering me around $73-74K to buy it. That's still a considerable gap for someone who is stretching it. At some point these prices are going to matter. I had to decide between a 55K LS430 and 74K S430...The price difference definitely factored into the decision.
Normally one would expect the lower priced car to sell more. I recall a funny case with Rolls Royce though. They decided to raise prices and oddly enough, sold more cars. I'd still maintain price is a big consideration in the purchase decision.
Of course owner experience does matter too. I've always liked MB but have been scared off by the horror stories and residual values as of late. Maybe I'll pick up one of those upcoming E320 CDI 4-Matics. As Merc said, MB is great at making a big car look elegant. They've done a great job on their sedans. I only wish they didn't adopt the I-Drive approach. As it is, Lexus routing all the controls through the touchscreen drives me nuts. I'd prefer the Volvo approach with it just popping up when needed.
#9045 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [oac]
Apr 21, 2005 (9:23 pm)
"Really ? Maybe I missed something... but its good we are finally admitting the obvious."
Yeah you missed a lot. My point about this was that no matter what is being talked about styling, engines or whatever it goes back to the same irrelevant and imo lame stuff about profits and what not, things that have nothing to do with anything being talked about. No one posting here in favor of Mercedes has ever denied that they have some corporate and reliability problems.
"Regardless, the new spy pictures of the new S looks terrible, and I will agree with Len here that the new style doesn't look as beautiful as the current S, and was something I was refering to in my previous post, that MB will try to over-compensate and screw things up even more. I guess, time will tell."
Yes time will tell because this is nothing more than hype imo, to draw a conclusion about a car you've never even seen before. Spy photos really mean nothing until the finished product is shown. All a spy photo can give is a general idea as to the shape and size of the car. I'm sure you and Lenn will call the next S ugly either way because the current car is so good looking to the point of shaming the LS in that department so naturally you'd want the new one to stumble in that area. Now that Lexus has come up with a lame styling theme L-finesse (yeah right) you've convinced yourself that the GS is a good looking car when its really nothing but a rework of the previous car with too much wheelbase and BMW hoff kink at the rear and yet poof new styling direction that gets killed by another Japanese car in the M35/45 let alone the E-Class or A6 in styling, of course IMO. You guys believe anything Lexus says or does, and can't see anything else.
#9046 of 24723 Toyota can build the best Limo in the World? "Century" RULE!!!!!
Apr 21, 2005 (9:25 pm)
My business partner in Japan offered me a ride of a life time. His car, "Century", was a Toyota(?!) flagship in japan. The car looks classy and maintains an old Japanese car front and tail design. The side mirrors is built on the side of the over-hangs (another classy design that reminded me the old time). The biggest surprise come under the hood: a VVTi V12 (It is a shame that I forgot to ask how many horses it can produce.). Since i did not drive it, I cannot tell how it perform either. But even in the noisy Tokyo streets, the carbin isolate sounds like they never exist. My partner told me it is comparable with a Mercedes-Benz S600 with its horsepower, length, and room. He also told me even though its price tag is lower, Japaneses will respect you more because of it is "a domestic product". It will be hard for toyota (or lexus) to build the next generation LS to beat "Century"'s hospitality or its classic design. For me, its old look is an over kill. It will be the best if they can build me one with Left driver.
#9047 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [ljflx]
Apr 21, 2005 (9:30 pm)
"I'll say again I think a larger car than the current car - whether it looks it or not - combined with an I-drive type of technology will not play out well with spouses and the I-drive doesn't play out well with anyone anyway."
I can understand why you would think this about the adoption of an Idrive like system, but why is it mistake to make the car bigger. Is the S-Class supposed to remain smaller than the Phaeton, A8L and 7-Series L models? This doesn't make sense. Up until all these newer cars came out the Mercedes was usually the biggest car in the class year after year, why on earth would they not offer more interior/trunk space if the competition has it?
Apr 22, 2005 (4:02 am)
Camp Lexus loves the GS so the next LS is a lock regardless of what it looks like. It could come out looking like Rosemary's baby. Doesn't matter.
"L-finesse (yeah right)"
Love it. They're learning to layer it on thick, as Bangle does.
#9049 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [merc1]
Apr 22, 2005 (6:21 am)
The difference in length size of the competitions current cars is half or three quartesr of an inch right now. If that's all MB is going up by then no big deal. But I've read they are going back to the 209" length of the past and IMO that is a mistake. That is all there is to it.
Cheez - you are so worked up because we like the new GS. I haven't read a bad review of its looks anywhere except for a few posts on this board. I find it has a great balance of aggressive sport look and top notch luxury appeal inside and out, with the usual great Lexus build quality. I find it a very different car than the old GS. The pictures failed to show this but in person it was a different story. Plus the Mark Levinson stereo in this car is absolutely incredible. I prefer it's looks over everything else in the class but I'm a buyer in the next level up anyway, so what's the difference. But if you want to think that I feel that way because it is a Lexus then go ahead and think that.
#9050 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [ljflx]
Apr 22, 2005 (6:54 am)
"The difference in length size of the competitions current cars is half or three quartesr of an inch right now. If that's all MB is going up by then no big deal. But I've read they are going back to the 209" length of the past and IMO that is a mistake. That is all there is to it."
Yeah right. Nothing technical to base this on just the usual bias it seems, the new cars deminsions haven't been seen anywhere by anyone. You heard this and read that ok. Thats all there is too it? Seems like there isn't much of anything to this to me. How in the world you've come to this conclusion I'll never know. Do you really think they'll at 6 inches to the car overall? Really now. Even I'd be surprised if they did that and even if they did MB is a master at making a large car very elegant and proportioned, unlike Lexus. With them its either box cars or whales.
"Cheez - you are so worked up because we like the new GS. I haven't read a bad review of its looks anywhere except for a few posts on this board. I find it has a great balance of aggressive sport look and top notch luxury appeal inside and out, with the usual great Lexus build quality. I find it a very different car than the old GS. The pictures failed to show this but in person it was a different story. Plus the Mark Levinson stereo in this car is absolutely incredible. I prefer it's looks over everything else in the class but I'm a buyer in the next level up anyway, so what's the difference. But if you want to think that I feel that way because it is a Lexus then go ahead and think that."
Somehow I expected no less. You'll like anything Lexus styles because they said they have a new design direction. Worked up? Nah, try tickled because you all are so gullable when it comes to Lexus' press releases. The usuals about stereos and what not, but thats to be expected I guess. You're right the pictures fail to show how truly unnattractive the GS really is. Next the STS its the worst looking car in the class, imo. Too much wheelbase and a humped back that only a L fanatic could love. We'll never agree on styling it seems. Even I can admit when a German car (even a Mercedes) is looking its best, but you guys I tell ya.
Since when do you care what the "autorags" have to say about styling? All the years they said Lexus' were knockoffs they were wrong, but now because some of them like the GS and/or haven't called it ugly or a knockoff you agree with them now. Really now....
Don't change it'll kill me!
#9051 of 24723 Re: Pricing Point [sv7887]
Apr 22, 2005 (7:25 am)
You make some good points.
About price, I find it interesting that people who own Lexus generally owned Mercedes S at one time or another (at least the people on this board) That means people with sufficent incomes to buy Mercedes chose Lexus...
I also find many Lexus Converts from Mercedes S but few from BMW 7 and rarely a Lexus buyer moving to/ back to, Mercedes S.
At least that is my observations from the posts of people on this board.