Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#8984 of 24726 Re: Gas Prices... [sv7887]
Apr 16, 2005 (5:16 pm)
"I had the opportunity to drive a Volvo S60 R AWD the other day. I know this isn't a "high end" marque, but I think I am starting to understand the BMW/MB side of things here. It was a very spirited driving experience and the car rode like it was on rails. Very impressive. It was a different experience alltogether from my LS430. After driving that car, I feel even more strongly our attempts at arguing which car is better is pointless. It's clear to me each manufacturer caters to a different personality set. It all depends on your buying criteria really."
Ahh..very interesting. Just think that was just a "Volvo", wait until you try AMG Mercedes-Benz or a Motorsport BMW. A whole different world from anything from Japan.
"I've been thinking alot about the E320 CDI with the fuel prices what they are. Will they offer that with 4Matic? I always wondered why we don't see more Diesel variants of high end cars here. I saw enough of them in London."
Well diesel has a dirty name here to the uninformed. They're still stuck on what went on in the 1980s so diesels are a tough sell to people who aren't current on modern diesel's many advances. Secondly the U.S. diesel fuel supply is too "dirty" with sulfur for the current diesels to really be effective. This is scheduled to change around Aug-Sept 2006 when clean diesel is supposed to be the law. This is also why the current E320 CDI still uses the old I6 instead of Mercedes' new V6 diesel. BMW has recently announced that they will import diesels here for 2007 and Mercedes has also stated that the new M-Class will be available with a diesel for the 2007 model year. BMW in particular has a killer diesel in the form of the 535d....I6/272hp, lots of torque and nearly 545i gasoline V8 performance while getting way better mileage than the much weaker gasoline I6 530i. Mercedes can't offer the current E320 CDI in 4Matic because the I6 engine and 4Matic hardware won't fit, but for 2007 the new V6 diesel engine Mercedes just unveiled (224hp/376lb-ft) will be in the 2007 E320CDI with 4Matic being available because the V6 is much more compact. Mercedes also has a new 4.0L V8 (314hp) diesel which I'm sure will come here with the next S-Class and maybe even in the E, M, and R Classes as well. I forgot but I think I've seen where the R-Class will get a diesel also for 2007. The diesel combinations are endless once the fuel supply is cleaned up and these motors can pass Caili (and the like) emision standards.
#8985 of 24726 DCX being approached for buy out bid => breakup
Apr 16, 2005 (5:29 pm)
There's a good article in the Autoinsider section of the Detroit News about the fact that major DCX shareholders Deutschbank and Kuwait Investment Corp have been approached by private equity firms to buy out their shares so that DCX can be broken up.
MB might have to figure out how to survive on its own without Chrysler keeping it afloat financially. Deutschbank won't like this because they know that they'll have to bail MB out.
Ah, wishful thinking.
Apr 17, 2005 (2:18 am)
I think it is kind of sad that the 320CDI hasn't gotten more attention in the US. I think it is not just the 80s "dirty" reputation, but also how the press has treated it...meaning that they haven't given it and modern diesel generally the coverage they deserve. Hybrid just seems "newer" and therefore makes a more "interesting" "story". The buying public imho really is influenced by media hype.
Apr 17, 2005 (6:57 am)
Merc, thanks for your information on the diesels. I think the E320 CDI deserves more attention. I'm really interested in a 4Matic/Diesel combo. It would be great in the New England weather and easy on the fuel. My neighbor has a VW Passat Wagon diesel that gets nearly 50 MPG. My LS430 gets about 18 MPG around town. I think MB would do well by bringing a S Class diesel to the US. A lot of my friends swear by diesel. It's a shame the press hasn't given them more attention. Hybrids may be new, but I wonder what issues will crop up with them in the long term. At least Diesel has been tried and tested.
The Volvo was an interesting experience. I've never been in a M series BMW or an AMG MB. Sounds like a lot of fun. It would be nice for a toy car. Up here in MA, I don't think you could use one of those as a daily driver. Then again, I doubt those cars are meant for the daily commute. I'm beginning to see the point, that a car purchase doesn't always have to "make sense". (In terms of JDP, CR, etc)
#8988 of 24726 Re: diesel [syswei]
Apr 17, 2005 (7:03 am)
Gas hybrid is a much easier transition than diesel. It's change without effort or breaking habit..In effect it's change without change. That type of transition will win 99 out of a 100 times. Diesel is frought with political and undecided regulatory issues that may be different on a state by state basis when these issues are finally decided. The amount of buyers needed to drive a change to diesel will always be lacking unless the foundation is rock solid. Even if that foundation gets there someday you are then dealing with a change of habit and custom. IMO the end game was decided long before the media got involved. Diesel is, and will continue to be destined the "Apple" of the automotive world in the US.
Apr 17, 2005 (1:14 pm)
I think you'll see much more about diesels once BMW, MB, Audi and VW have all made sure that the U.S. diesel fuel supply is cleaned up and their latest and greatest can pass emissions.
The E320CDI exceeded it sales goal last year by a 1000 units, not sure what its doing this year. I do see them every now and then on the road, but its the old I6 engine block so its just a placeholder until the 2007 model year. Then you'll see the latest tech from all three German luxury makers and VW. Mercedes in particular has a diesel available or proposed in every bodystyle of every model they make, even the SL, SLK and CLK. Ditto for BMW. Here is a nice writeup on all of Mercedes' diesel happenings:
Of particular note are the SLK320 CDI and SL400 CDI. They outperform the "petrol" (love that word) versions in every way.
#8991 of 24726 Re: Diesel [sv7887]
Apr 17, 2005 (1:31 pm)
I think you'll see an S-Class diesel here for sure sometime after the big launch of the new model. The rumor mill says (this week) that there will be a 268hp S350, 340hp S450, 410hp S550, 500hp S600, and a 630hp S65 AMG. The S63, which takes the place of the S55 is totally up in the air and the guesstimates vary wildly. I can see the new 314hp S400 CDI coming here too.
"I'm beginning to see the point, that a car purchase doesn't always have to "make sense". (In terms of JDP, CR, etc)"
Great day in the morning....as I live and breathe! The most startling thing I've read on this board in years!
The Volvo S60R is a neat car for sure. The AMG and M cars are the pinnacle of this type, have been for years. One is the ultimate for on road work and the other superior at the track, but both with luxury of their respective brands. Every other luxury car maker in the world now wants a tuning arm or has plans to start one because of them. Mercedes, unlike BMW is determined to have an AMG version of everything they sell compared to just C and E-Class vehicles during previous years. Can you image what this new 500hp V10 M5 must drive like? Just watching it on Auto, Motor und Sport TV is shocking enough. The MB dealer here has 2 SL65 AMGs ready to go. These are 604hp cars! I've driven the current SL500 twice now and didn't want for more power so I can only imagine what doubling the SL500's hp must feel like. You should try and AMG model out, we'll start you out with an E55 or S55...lol. You like Jaguars right? Check out the XJR, it's a British express.
#8992 of 24726 Re: Diesel [merc1]
Apr 17, 2005 (2:10 pm)
I would get a diesel in a heartbeat over a hybrid. Firstly, there probably won't be that much more of a premium, if at all given that diesel engines are commonplace. Secondly, without a shadow of a doubt they will last longer than gas engines. Third, even if the price of diesel if higher than premium, it is offset by the savings in mpg and the lack of sophisticated electronics. Which means a vehicle must less likely to need repair over the long haul.
#8993 of 24726 Re: Diesel [merc1]
Apr 17, 2005 (3:07 pm)
#8991 of 8992 Re: Diesel [sv7887] by merc1 Apr 17, 2005 (5:31 pm)
The Volvo S60R is a neat car for sure. The AMG and M cars are the pinnacle of this type, have been for years.
In my humble opinion, there is no pinnacle. Both BMW and Mercedes are undubitably the pioneers of this concept, but eventually what matters most is what matters to the buyer most. After considering many cars, I decided to go with a Volvo S60R for the following reasons: its is an AWD unlike the M's or AMG's (as far as I know), the seats are superbly comfortable and contoured to the back (unlike the torture-rack Porsche seats I currently experience...without mentioning their many other design and profit-making fallacies) and finally, the price is substantially lower than that of either the BMW's or the Mercedes. For many of those who seek to be identified by the brand they wear, go with M or AMG. BMW designs stink and Mercedes quality is like Hyudai of the past. I wouldn't be surprised if Hyundai fares better in quality now. The S60R, in contrast, is a technological marvel, and has better safety ratings (with four doors, awd, manual tranny, and a user specified suspension setting). I never thought much of Volvos in the past, but they earned my respect with the S60R. Final thought for the day...why would anyone want to drive to performance car that does not have a manual transmission? Is it: a) a matter of convenience or really b) can't drive a manual transmission and have to go through life making flimsy excuses?