Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Apr 14, 2005 (3:53 am)
Just for you. Does this mean anything?
"The Mercedes-Benz E-Class offers the best occupant safety of all passengers cars registered in the USA. That was the conclusion reached by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) after extensive accident analysis.
Between 2000 and 2003, the independent IIHS looked at how many drivers were killed in road accidents. The Mercedes-Benz E-Class obtained the best results of all the models examined: the E-Class accounts for ten fatal accidents a year for every million vehicles registered. The comparable average figure for all passenger cars is almost nine times higher than the E-Class; the figure for certain models is even over 300, according to the IIHS.
The results from the Mercedes-Benz S-Class are equally impressive. With a score of 25, the S-Class is the safest car in the “Luxury Class, very large” category.
These findings are again impressive testimony to the effectiveness of the practical Mercedes-Benz safety concept. The concept is based on analysing real-world accidents and defines vehicle safety as a whole, ranging from accident prevention by means of electronic assistance systems through occupant protection that adapts to the severity of the impact, to allowing passengers to be rescued as quickly as possible after an accident."
This paints a far different picture than the one you tried to a few pages ago, and this result is based on actual research not a Google search. To think this research was done, and the result achieved during the years in which Mercedes' reliablity was at its worst, yet they managed to accomplish this. Note, they mention both the E and S-Class as being the best in their respective categories. Seems to me that theory about Mercedes' reliability being a deadly problem goes right out the window. Here is your proof about Mercedes' safety in the real world.
#8964 of 24726 Re: syswei [merc1]
Apr 14, 2005 (4:46 am)
#8965 of 24726 Re: syswei [merc1]
Apr 14, 2005 (4:47 am)
When it works, it's great. We all agree on that. But what about those in the dealer's shops for recall or repair? Let's agree on just one thing, MB DOES have reliability problems.
Why do you still beat this to death? Aren't we done with this long time ago?
#8966 of 24726 Re: syswei [ctsang]
Apr 14, 2005 (4:51 am)
What is he beating to death? He already acknowledged MB’s reliability problems. And I don’t recall seeing reference to those stats before.
#8967 of 24726 Re: syswei [ctsang]
Apr 14, 2005 (4:54 am)
You missed the point obviously. The point is that Mercedes' safety technology does work. All this talk on here about reliability as if nothing ever works on a Mercedes then trying to say that MB's are deadly because of it is the tired and worn part and most of all it wasn't even true. That "when it works" crap is just that and it doesn't apply to safety like some tried to imply.
#8968 of 24726 Re: syswei [designman]
Apr 14, 2005 (4:55 am)
I guess it can't be helped, if it isn't from JDP and CR it doesn't compute.
Apr 14, 2005 (5:03 am)
Ah, so you are willing to accept IIHS data now?
1. The full study, if you look at it http://www.iihs.org/srpdfs/sr4003.pdf only included one Lexus vehicle, the RX, which by the way ranked as safer than the S-Class, though not as safe as the E. (Not bad for a vehicle with a higher center of gravity than either the S or E.) So the study you tout hardly proves that MB is safer than Lexus, or that the S is safer than the LS.
2. Since you accept IIHS data now, why don't you take a look at this:
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_lux.htm . That data...from the same source you just touted...shows that the LS has lower injury rates than the S. In fact it shows that the LS is the safest luxury sedan, period (though if you include station wagons it gets beat by Audi).
So, which is safer in the real world, again?
#8970 of 24726 Re: merc1 [syswei]
Apr 14, 2005 (5:51 am)
"That data...from the same source you just touted...shows that the LS has lower injury rates than the S. In fact it shows that the LS is the safest luxury sedan, period (though if you include station wagons it gets beat by Audi).
The part of the survey I showed deals with deaths not injuries. More injuries in this case didn't translate into deaths.
For any Mercedes to be ranked highly anywhere on this survey blows your theory about Mercedes' reliability having an adverse affect on their safety out of the window. According to you MB's reliablity problems cancel out any advantage they may have in safety engineering because the engineering isn't reliable and doesn't work. That is simply bogus and isn't supported by anything. This proves that. Remember in one hand is CR who ranked the E-Class as the most unreliable this and that in America yet still manages to be safe according to IIHS. Safer than most other cars on the road.
Also I do see where the CLK is safer than the ES, the C-Class 4-door is safer than the IS, and the E is safer than the GS. Do you not see this?
"So, which is safer in the real world, again?"
Mercedes is, beating Lexus in the majority of models in the survey!
BTW, I never had anything against their data, never disputed it.
Apr 14, 2005 (6:26 am)
"So, which is safer in the real world, again?"
I just don't see how you can arrive at that conclusion using the available data. Let's say its just fine for you to throw out the injury data and focus on the death data. The death data doesn't prove anything, because it included only the E, RX, and S...and the RX ranked in the middle of the three. The only conclusion one might draw is that when it comes to death rates, Lexus is about as safe as MB. But even that conclusion is a stretch because so many Lexus and MB models aren't referenced in the death rate study (LS, GS, C, ML, etc., etc.)
As for the injury data, if you average all the IIHS MB injury data you get an injury rate of 75.6. If you average all the Lexus injury data you get…75.5.
So in summary the death rate data is inconclusive as regards MB vs Lexus, and the injury data seems to show about equal real-world safety.
I stand by my point of several weeks ago, that lack of certain safety devices in Lexus vehicles may be offset by the impact of MB’s reliability issues on safety. I never claimed that the reliability factor definitely outweighed the safety equipment factor (and if you think I did I'd like to see the quote), only that we didn’t have enough data and that the two factors might cancel each other out. Now, examination of the IIHS data seems to support the notion that overall real-world safety is about equal between the 2 brands.