Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#8549 of 24726 Re: Oac [merc1]
Mar 13, 2005 (3:39 pm)
Phew !!! Where to start ??? That was a very looooonnnnnng response, I must say; one of your longest....
But first, I thank you for answering to my request per the new GS. I take all of your points as genuine and well put. Thanks.
Now as to the rest of your long post, I really don't know what to say. Let's start with the one about Lexus' presence or lack thereof in its home country. I disagree. Lexus has been in its home country since 1990, except that it is cloaked as a "Toyota". Yes, MB and BMW do have good prestige in Japan, if only because they are different, foreign, and have excellent worldwide reputation. Well-off Japanese and other younger folks may also want to drive non-Japanese cars as status symbols too. At least that's what my business associate told me. I cannot verify this since I don't live there.
"BMW is a luxury brand, Toyota isn't"
Really ? True luxury makers are Rolls Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Ferraris, etc.... Niche car makers, catering to the very well-off in our society. OTOH, a mass-producer company like BMW is certanly NOT a luxury brand. Rather, they sell automobiles some of which can be classified as *luxurious*. Of course, they sell a bunch more cars with no pretensions to luxury whatsoever. Ditto MB. However, the marketing image created here in NA, is that MB and BMW are branded as *luxury* car makers, because this is the richest market in the world and these companies want to make the most $$$$ from this market....Toyota is no different from MB and BMW. It sells a wide range of automobiles and trucks, some of which are branded *luxurious* and sold under Toyota (e.g. Century, Celsior) or Lexus badge.
"How is MB and BMW selling 3-Series and C-Class cars "suspect" in America? You seem to be reaching for something that isn't there. The 3-Series and C-Class being sales leaders is common sense, the cheapest products are the best selling ones at nearly every luxury brand in the U.S."
First off, Lexus' RX is not the cheapest, yet sells extremely well, contrary to your assertion here. But more importantly, my use of the word "suspect" was to describe cars sold by MB, BMW, Lexus and Acura that are branded "entry-level lux", or "near-luxury" sedans. These cars, like the 325i, IS300, C240, TL are not true luxury cars, just branded as one due to name plate. They have features you'd find in many other non-luxury cars out there. For example, what does the 325i have that a well optioned Accord doesn't have ? Is a loaded Accord, with leather, moonroof, Nav, CD changer, airbags (side, blanket, etc), etc... a *luxury* car ? Many would say NO. Why ? Bcos it is badged a HONDA. Whereas a car with similar or even less features but carrying a BMW badge will be branded a *luxury* car !!!
BMW or MB or VW buys up all kinds of niche luxury car companies to turn themselves into a luxury car maker (RR, Bentley, Maybach, etc), Toyota remains unitary and develops its own home-grown luxury arm (Lexus). The common thread among all these companies is that they compete GLOBALLY, and Lexus must be considered part of Toyota (not separate), as you'd consider Bentley an arm of VW....
So my point about global presence by Toyota and BMW is apples to apples !
#8550 of 24726 750 Li AWD
Mar 13, 2005 (4:36 pm)
Does anybody know whether the new 7er will be AWD?
Mar 13, 2005 (5:46 pm)
your post exemplifies exactly why people call Lexus automobiles high priced Toyota's. if people who purchase Lexus automobiles can't differentiate the brand Lexus from Toyota how
can they expect anyone else to?
#8552 of 24726 Re: 750 Li AWD [jgo03]
Mar 13, 2005 (5:49 pm)
i don't know why they don't but it wouldn't be a bad idea imo.
if they did offer awd on the 7 i would think it would help their sales.
#8553 of 24726 Re: Idle rich.. [vwguild]
Mar 13, 2005 (5:56 pm)
for the Phaeton to succeed VW is going to have to keep the car in production though one more generation. awareness in the market place might be enough to make the car a success in spite of VW's lack of an effective marketing campaign. one thing that might help sales would be to decontent the car so as to make the car more profitable for VW and more affordable for a buyer. try in some way to keep the car around 50k.
#8554 of 24726 Re: Oac [denaliinpa]
Mar 13, 2005 (6:11 pm)
"your post exemplifies exactly why people call Lexus automobiles high priced Toyota's"
Would you classify your A8 as the high-priced version of the Audi's sold in Europe as TAXI cabs ? I bet no Bentley or RR owner would imagine their brands being lowered to TAXI cab levels to sherpherd people and goods all over the world.
Mar 13, 2005 (6:50 pm)
it actually doesn't make one bit of difference at all if Audi's are used for taxi's, herding sheep, or 4000lb paper weights. the point is every time Lexus and Toyota are mentioned in the same sentence the brand cache that every Lexus owner feels they have or wishes they had is further removed and harder to attain.
Mar 13, 2005 (7:31 pm)
You are right Den...
#8557 of 24726 Re: Oac [denaliinpa]
Mar 13, 2005 (7:31 pm)
OAC - it's useless - time to move on. He wants to brand Lexus as Toyota with equal status - let him. It's too silly an issue to keep debating and he only makes himself look bad anyway.