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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 839 of 2473

#8379 of 24723 Re: Side Impact Airbags [sv7887] by tiag_m5

Mar 08, 2005 (8:21 pm)

Replying to: sv7887 (Mar 08, 2005 5:39 am)
Tiag_M5 has repeatedly said the LS 430 is UNSAFE because of the exclusion of a single airbag. No question all high end marques will fare better, but this goes to show the difference that an airbag will make using a common benchmark.
 
I never said the LS430 was unsafe, I just said it was LESS safe than an S class.
 
In the Corolla case, it made only a marginal difference. The key here is the structure is the No 1 line of defense in a crash. It goes to show that a single airbag does not make one car safer than the other.
 
A marginal difference? Going from “rib fractures and/or internal organ injuries” to a good rating is a marginal difference? Sounds like a pretty large difference to me.
  
No doubt Lexus is slower to adopt these measures, but I take issue with calling these cars unsafe because of the exclusion of a SINGLE device. ALL of these arguments can be used to call the Jaguar unsafe too. Will you accuse Jaguar of cutting corners as well?
 
But we aren’t just talking about the exclusion of a single device; we’re talking about the exclusion of many devices across the Lexus model line. Not to mention that Lexus took/takes its sweet time in adopting the features that it does/will have to boot. If Lexus feels the need to penny pinch on its flagship LS430 by not including inexpensive side airbags, what does this say about the company in general? To me it speaks volumes about the Toyota/Lexus non-dedication to safety. Also, I would whole heartedly agree with you about Jaguar… I would never vouch for them.
 
 We all now know the Frame of the LS is used in classrooms for its design.
 
I’m not sure I believe that. There isn’t anything extraordinary about the LS frame.
 
The crash tests have shown that the LS has performed equally well
 
Yes, it did well in ONE test, a test which hasn’t even been carried out with the S or 7. Crash tests are great and all, but with Lexus you have no reason to believe that the LS would perform as well at a different speed, angle, collision type, etc. With Mercedes, you have every reason to believe that the S will hold up in the real world because its part and parcel of what Mercedes is all about… not so with Lexus.
  
Now my car took a 30'ish MPH impact from a Honda Civic (of all things). The wheel and suspension took most of the hit. Amazingly the wheel was still straight when they tested it. However everything attached to that wheel had to be replaced. I still don't know where $7000 in damage came from. The engine mounts and coolant container also had to be done. All mechanical work was done by the Lexus dealer using OEM parts.
 
I highly doubt that the impact you experienced was even close to 30mph… maybe 15 mph or less. If it was 30, I am amazed and would suspect that the difference in weight between the LS and the civic accounts for the relatively small amount of damage. When you’re in an accident it seems more severe than it really is. When I was broadsided by a drunk in my ’98 528i it seemed to me that the driver must have been going at least 70 judging by how far I was pushed across the intersection and how hard my car smashed into the adjacent traffic signal pole. Turns out he hit me between 45 and 50mph according to police reports. Lucky for me, 1998 was the first year that BMW included side head protection airbags as standard equipment on the 5 series. This feature coupled with BMWs interlocking door anchor system, sturdy frame, and side torso airbag probably saved me from serious injury or death.
  
This car doesn't have any side impact airbags, pre-collision, or any other electronic measures, but makes up for it in frame construction. I don't think this is an "unsafe" car..I'd take a hit any day in this car.
 
No degree of frame construction will mitigate the importance of airbags and the like. Obviously frame strength is important, but I would argue that other safety features are equally important. They go hand in hand. You can’t have one without the other if you want the ultimate in safety.
 
While many will disagree I think the old cars were sturdier than the new ones. My friend had a nasty accident in his 1988 MB 300SE and walked away. The car was in the shop for three weeks and was seriously damaged. Like mine, he doesn't have any of this new age stuff. But he wouldn't hesitate to hop back into his trusty 300SE and drive it around. (Mind you he has a '02 S430 but drives his 300SE more..)
 
The notion that older cars are sturdier or that new cars are “plastic” is just a myth. No doubt the MB 300SE was one of the safest cars on the road for its day, but newer MB cars have progressed far beyond what was offered in the 80s in both active and passive safety.
 
-------
 
For those of you that are interested, here is a link that shows some of the many crash tests than Mercedes performs internally in addition to their real world accident investigation team:
 
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/mbcrashtesting.html
 
This guy's webpage actually has a lot of information about Mercedes safety:
 
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/crashes.html

#8380 of 24723 CR ratings by topspin628

Mar 08, 2005 (8:29 pm)

From my perspective, I believe that CR is spot on in it's reliability ratings. When I ask people about the cars they own and when I factor in my own experience it seems to back up what CR claims.
For example, I know two people who have the BMW 7 series and both had horror stories with it. I also have asked several owners of MB S Class and have found very mixed results. Some have many problems and others had none. The "many problem" group would be enough to rank it as unreliable. I also asked a technician at the local MB dealer what was the deal with the S Class when I was considering buying one. He told me that most are fine now but if you get a bad one, it's real bad. I own a BMW X5 which we love but has had a few issues and likewise with an MB ML320 we had which was marked as unreliable and also was in the shop more times than we would like to remember. When both of those cars are performing well they are great. That's why customer satisfaction and reliability ratings are sometimes at odds. People can really love some cars that need a lot of "fixing".
 
All of this it not very scientific on my part but it's amazing what you can find out by talking to people. And what I've found is that CR seems to be quite accurate both from my personal experience and from just "talking" to folks.

#8381 of 24723 Re: Wow, a Lexus love fest from German fans [hpowders] by michael_mattox

Mar 08, 2005 (8:30 pm)

Replying to: hpowders (Mar 08, 2005 1:30 pm)
hpowders:
 
You know Gates just dotes on his kids...you can bet he did the research and the LS was the safest car he could find. He wouldn't want his kids in the Second safest.

#8382 of 24723 Re: Audi climbing a ski jump [hpowders] by denaliinpa

Mar 08, 2005 (8:33 pm)

Replying to: hpowders (Mar 08, 2005 6:33 pm)
http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050308.004
 
here is the link to check it out.

#8383 of 24723 Re: take off the German blinders II [tiag_m5] by hpowders

Mar 08, 2005 (8:34 pm)

Replying to: tiag_m5 (Mar 08, 2005 7:43 pm)
I agree that CU can probably do a better job on reliability.
I notice that the reliability rating for the 2005 BMW 5 series in its auto issue is the worst they give out-a black circle(bottom of page 42). Yet if you go to the back of the issue where all the cars are rated for reliability scores listing 14 trouble spots from engine down to body hardware(page 83) for the years 2002, 2003 and 2004, there isn't one black circle or half a black circle for the 5 series.
For 2004, the 5 series was given 13 red circles or half-circles(their highest reliability ratings) out of 14 categories! No black circles. One average reliability grade for power equipment. These marks indicate a very reliable vehicle! How then can CU forecast a much poorer than average reliability rating for 2005 based on their data as they do on the bottom of page 42? Very confusing and disturbing.
I will try to write them on their website to see what gives.

#8384 of 24723 Re: Side Airbags [tiag_m5] by michael_mattox

Mar 08, 2005 (8:42 pm)

Replying to: tiag_m5 (Mar 08, 2005 6:49 pm)
Tiag:
 
What we do know about safety is:
 
1) The safety features in a Lexus are perfected by the Lexus engineers to be as close to perfect as possible before they go into the car...No rushing junk into the market so they can claim #1...
 
2) The Safety features in the Lexus will work every time...As their Dependability ratings prove.
 
3) When The Stats are viewed...When fatalities are counted, when injuries are looked into...It is the Lexus that is right at the top..THAT IS WHY BILL GATES BOUGHT A LEXUS..SO HIS KIDS WOULD BE SAFE EVEN THOUGH DADDY MIGHT DRIVE TOO FAST.

#8385 of 24723 Re: take off the German blinders II [tiag_m5] by ljflx

Mar 08, 2005 (8:48 pm)

Replying to: tiag_m5 (Mar 08, 2005 7:43 pm)
"Okay, so maybe my comment was a bit exaggerated."
 
As is everything else you say - like this one - "Not to mention that the S430 is more athletic than the LS by ten fold".
 
Your opinion of course. I drove both cars often and have to wonder what the heck you are talking about. I had to move to an S500 for proper comparison becaues the S430 felt underpowered.
 
Pricing and options - Come on - were you born yesterday or something?? You get an S430 with a bunch of things a Lexus doesn't have standard and its base is $17K more than the Lexus. Now add those options in on the Lexus and add in the things the Lexus has that the S430 lacks and the car price difference drops to $7k. My interpretation is very different than yours. One company forces them down your throat and forces you to pay, thereby limiting your choice and the other let's you make the choices on price vs added equipment. What is the cost difference of $7k really attributable to for the most part - efficiency of Lexus mfr. vs inefficiency of MB's. Even MB themselves acknowledges the latter in DCX's latest Wall Street report which is why they are about to go into cost cutting mode.

#8386 of 24723 Re: CR ratings [topspin628] by tiag_m5

Mar 08, 2005 (8:49 pm)

Replying to: topspin628 (Mar 08, 2005 8:29 pm)
From my perspective, I believe that CR is spot on in it's reliability ratings. When I ask people about the cars they own and when I factor in my own experience it seems to back up what CR claims.
 
CR's ratings just don't make much sense. Take the X5 for example. They marked it with a black X as worse than average predicted reliability for 2005... Yet at the same time, we see that the X5 has been improving reliability in all areas since 2000. Furthermore, we see that over the last 2 or 3 years, the X5 has "above average" to "excellent" in all categories except one or two "average" scores for things like electric.
 
On the whole, the X5 appears to be a very reliable car, and furthermore that its reliability has been improving every year. Given these facts, I'm mnot sure I understand how CR manages to predict a below average overall score for this model year. It just doesn't make any since.
 
For example, I know two people who have the BMW 7 series and both had horror stories with it. I also have asked several owners of MB S Class and have found very mixed results.
 
While were talking about personal experiences, I just want to throw in my two cents. Over the last 15 years I have owned 1 Volvo, 2 Mercedes and 3 BMWs. Apparnetly I just have really good luck because none of these cars has presented me with any major problems. I have had less than a few electrical glitches with my Mercedes and one faulty door lock actuator with my current BMW. The day my Mercedes leaves me stranded on the side of a dark country highway with no cell reception, I might consider buying a more reliable car. But so far, my experience with European cars has been nothing but positive on the whole.
 
Go figure...

#8387 of 24723 Re: More of the same... [tiag_m5] by michael_mattox

Mar 08, 2005 (8:53 pm)

Replying to: tiag_m5 (Mar 08, 2005 7:30 pm)
Wasn't there just a big recall at Mercedes because the sensors that disconnect the Battery and Fuel line were defective...I BELIEVE THERE WAS.
 
What lexus does a Rav 4 and a pickup and a chevy share parts with? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
 
But the big cost saver is Quality...and the savings from not having to do a lot of warrenty work.
 
If the systems all work flawlessly why do marketers have to stock the Mercedes ECS...they wouldn't stock something there isn't a market for..I suppose they are stocking up right now on those sensors I mentioned earlier.

#8388 of 24723 Re: Side Impact Airbags [tiag_m5] by denaliinpa

Mar 08, 2005 (9:00 pm)

Replying to: tiag_m5 (Mar 08, 2005 8:21 pm)
tiag m5 great links.
the links you provided show the photo i was trying to find. the S class being T boned by
a WEDGED SHAPE battering ram. it is amazing how safe the S class is. hats of to MB. i wish i could find some photos of the A8 being tested.
i can't prove this in anyway but i truly feel that Toyota and Lexus design their vehicles to perform well in the standard tests but not for real world collisions.
 
hey guys the LS is a fine car but for me it is not equal to the S. ask yourself what's more important.....CR's blessing or surviving a violent crash.
 
as for the price difference between the S430 and the LS. i think a couple of things are being omitted. the S was awd and also the long wheelbase version. these two options alone don't make up the complete dollar difference but i would think it changes the equation by 5k.
 
tiag m5...i had an 03 M5. fantastic automobile.
the only car i have ever missed after i sold it.

Messages Page 839 of 2473

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