Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#8325 of 24726 Re: ljflx [ljflx]
Mar 07, 2005 (10:09 pm)
"Well then that progress to produce a sporty design took a long time - 100 years or so."
Right, like other cars during those years, 4-door luxury cars to be exact had such swoopy designs. Like I said before this is all because Mercedes kills Lexus in design today so naturally the only defense is to reach back 30 years to knock Mercedes, when there was no Lexus to compare to because no doubt the Lexus would have looked far worse.
"Sales - it reverts back to sales because that is the ultimate barmometer that is indisputable. Much of your stuff is subjective to each person which is quite disputable and always will be.
Yep it sure is just like your theories about why people by and how they come to a decision about buying a car. You have no way of knowing anything about buyers reasons outside of your circle.
"Surveys - what a ridiculous statement it is to say we buy because of surveys. Where were the surveys about Lexus in 1990?? Didn't exist of course. But the brand skyrocketed right out of the starting gate. It's too bad that the surveys bother you so much and you have to resort to nonsensical BS to try and counter them."
Got me mixed up. Never stated that sir. Lexus didn't skyrocket at first either, they stayed behind Mercedes and BMW until the RX and the rest of their SUVs got popular. Sales, your favorite word, sales of their cars would put them behind MB, BMW, Cadillac and Acura if thats all they sold. They got lucky by catching the SUV wave while the Germans were not ready. Please stop pretending that all of their cars were stars before 1998. They weren't. The first ES250, GS300 and every edition of the GS and IS since have been duds. Lexus' only claim to fame before the RX was the LS400. Their other sedans were afterthoughts at best, and so was the original SC after Lexus left it on the market for 9 years with no real changes.
#8326 of 24726 Re: overboard [ctsang]
Mar 07, 2005 (10:12 pm)
"I did go way way overboard. I just can't stand that denaliipna and merc1 kept saying MB's style (which is so subjective) is better than Lexus. Even if MB were the same price as Lexus, I think Lexus still beats MB in safety, value and reliablity (all objective criteria)."
Style is in the eye of the beholder for sure, but Lexus being better in safety? You're free to think what you want, but there is nothing to support that view. MB's do make Lexus' look like Maytags, very reliable but awful to look at.
#8327 of 24726 Re: Mercedes reliability [hpowders]
Mar 07, 2005 (10:21 pm)
"I just wonder how MB can sell vehicles in the USA when Consumer Reports comes out in its highly influential April 2005 auto issue on page 18 predicting from its accumulation of previously submitted data that 2005 new car reliability across the MB brand should be about 80% below average.
That is because you've been led to believe that CR should be the ultimate authority on cars for everyone and it cleary isn't. Believe it or not more than a few people couldn't care less what CR says. I think I ready where CR is used by about 40 percent of new car buyers, most of them clueless about other aspects of a car, that CR couldn't even begin to tell anyone about.
Japanese cars in particular need glowing CR reviews, well at least Toyota/Lexus products do because in Lexus' case they surely aren't selling based on performance or styling. Consumer reports caters to those on this board that actually think consumers care about Toyota's earnings last quarter and other irrelevant stuff about behind the scenes corporate matters. For people who want an Audi, Land Rover, VW, or Mercedes based on the car itself CR is only good for wrapping fish heads.
There are other factors when deciding on a car besides reliability. Not that reliability isn't important, but reading these boards every German car (except BMW according to one Lexus owner here) is just not capable of providing a rewarding experience. Yet there are satisfied MB owners on Edmunds, one of which owned a Lexus during the same timeframe as a Mercedes.
It amazes me that BMW is thought of to be more reliable, yet the 7-Series, 5-Series and 6-Series, X5 and X3 have all been very problematic. This is why I don't take surveys as being the bible as Lexus fans do here.
I suggested before that the BMW 3-Series is the model holding up BMW's score in the past, but nope that couldn't be possible to the survey chasers, though they sell over 100K 3-Series a year. Wouldn't they get the most surveys? The 3-Series has been out since 1999, so it should be pretty reliable, but here the finer points of these surveys are not even talked about. There was a Cadillac owner here some time back that said over and over how BMW was superior to Mercedes, yet they purchased a 2002 745i. A brand new model for which no survey could help them determine the reliability of a brand new car at the time. Needless to say that 745i was the worst car they've ever owned as far as reliability. Isn't CR the one that said a 1996 LS400 is more reliable than a new 7-Series?
#8328 of 24726 Re: it's no CR [hpowders]
Mar 07, 2005 (10:29 pm)
the new GS is interesting.
not offensively styled or radically different. this segment will be a tough nut for Lexus to crack.
i suspect it will sell well for the first 18 to 24 months. mainly because people who like this size Lexus have not had a new car for 6-7 years now. what makes the GS different when long term sales are figured in is that the buyer in the GS's segment imo puts sport over luxury when making a buying decision. the exact opposite of the LS. this has never been a Lexus strong point. plus the German competition are getting all new more powerful engines in their base V8's by the end of this year. 300hp will be on the low end compared to it's direct competitors.
Mar 07, 2005 (10:40 pm)
The new GS will be hot for about 2 years or less, just like the 1998 version was. When the new LSxxx arrives it will take the attention away just as it did at the end of 2000 when the new 2001 LS arrived. The problem is that the LS430's base price is too close to the GS430s and Lexus buyers as evidenced on this board don't care about sport, though some have convinced themselves that the LS can be "pushed" (right). When the typical Lexus buyer looks at the much bigger and more luxurious LS430 that only cost a little more than the GS430 the LS430 gets the sale.
I'm sure Lexus will correct this with a higher base price for the next LS model, if they don't the GS430 in particular will lag again. That and when it comes to sports sedans I hardly see it beating the 5-Series and newcomer Infiniti M45 in a pure "sport" contest. The GS300 on the other hand has always sold better, but with the Infiniti M35 standing on its neck it seems a little overrun too.
To be fair, they do have a GS450h hybrid coming that will get some serious headlines when it arrives for the 2007 model year, and the GS will no doubt get new engines for 2007 after the LS arrives so Lexus may keep the GS alive longer than 2 years this time around.
Mar 07, 2005 (10:50 pm)
i wonder how high Lexus can really push
the price of the LS. imo there is a point
where most buyers will say ....i won't pay
that much for an overpriced Toyota". whether it
is fair or not i do think there is a ceiling
to what Lexus can charge for a vehicle. Merc1 i said in an earlier post that Lexus just can't look upward at the Germans. they now have to watch the competition coming up from behind.
it is strange that the brand as a whole can't support two 50k+ sedans. it is after all supposed to be a luxury brand?
#8331 of 24726 denaliinpa
Mar 07, 2005 (10:56 pm)
We'll see, but I'm guessing next time around the LS will be priced way above the GS if they want the GS to thrive. I'd say at the very, very least 60K, but more like 65K as a base and about 75-78K at the high end. In typical Lexus fashion they'll wait to see where the new S-Class is priced and try to come in right under the new S450's base price for their top of the line LS. I have to give them credit for pricing the LS so smartly but it has been a dual edged sword because pricing the LS so close to the GS430 killed the GS430 years ago, like only 150 units a month in the last few years for the GS430. The current GS/LS price relationship would be like if BMW and Mercedes priced the 745i/S430 within 5-7K of their 545i/E500 models, not smart.
Long as they don't try to challenge Mercedes directly in price I don't think they'll run into too much price resistance.
#8332 of 24726 Wow, a Lexus love fest from German fans
Mar 07, 2005 (11:58 pm)
That is really nice.... I am teary-eyed already, reading Merc1 and Denali talk about Lexus with such candor and interest.... Could it be .... ? Nah....
Talking of the new GS tho', two new engines and a hybrid are on the way - the 3.5L V6, that should put out 280+hp (due Fall 2006), the 4.6L V8 (due Fall 2006 on the LS), that should put out ~350hp, and the 450h with >330hp (due this year on the GS). Then, there is the 500GT, with a V12-like performance and a V6 fuel economy, in an LS500 LWB. And we don't know if they'll ever build the LF-A and/or the crossover LF-X. The IS gets a vert, coupe, AWD, sedan.... and a 300+hp 3.5L motor due here this Fall..... Hmmmmmm.... may be Lexus has a thing or two up its sleeves, don't you all think ???
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming, about how the LS430 is driven by old, blue-haired retired folks, while MBs and Audis are owned by yuppy 30-somethings...right ?
Mar 08, 2005 (12:04 am)
I am able to look at things objectively when others do the same...believe it or not. Its only when I read things like S600s and SL aren't luxury cars or that rear side airbags are a gimmick does the bs meter go into the red.
"Talking of the new GS tho', two new engines and a hybrid are on the way - the 3.5L V6, that should put out 280+hp, the 4.6L V8, that should put out ~350hp, and the 450h (3.5L V6 mated to a single/or dual battery) with >330hp, then you got a real killer line-up in this segment. All of these by MY2007/08."
This would be true if the others were going to just stand still. Lexus has better watch out for the Infiniti M35/45 lineup. It is just a matter of time before the E500 gets a new V8 and the 545i becomes the 360hp 550i, via the 750i's new V8. The hybrid will be an interesting car no doubt, but I'm betting on at least 400hp there if they want to be taken seriously by the performance crowd. While 400hp isn't going to even come close to the E55 or M5 or next RS6 it will provide an interesting alternative, mainly for being green. I see it more competing with the 440hp STS-V and Jaguar's S/XJ Type R's that that have around 400hp, but the German midsize tuner cars, 400hp isn't going to do much of anything.
"Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming, about how the LS430 is driven by old, blue-haired retired folks, while MBs and Audis are owned by yuppy 30-somethings...right?"
Of course not in every case, but I bet the demographic for Mercedes is younger, and I'm sure Audi and BMWs are. The LS and ES in particular are bought by more "mature" folks.
BTW, Oac I happen to like what I've seen of the IS so far.
#8334 of 24726 Re: More of the same... [sv7887]
Mar 08, 2005 (12:26 am)
"Unbalanced Whale?" This is utter nonsense. They even admitted the car wasn't equipped with the 18" tires and Euro Sport Suspension and admitted it was not a fair test. You're taking everything out of context.
Don't try to twist the facts. C&D never said that the test was unfair. Why would C&D put together an article and then discredit themselves by saying it was an unfair test? Give me a break. The only thing C&D said was that the LS wasn’t equipped with sport suspension… and they only mentioned it in order to cover their ass and qualify the fact that they mistakenly awarded first place to the car with lateral grip worse than most trucks. Even though the LS was not tested with the Euro Sport suspension, it shouldn’t matter by your logic anyway. After all, it wasn't fair for me to compare the more powerful S500 to the LS430 so why should it be fair for anyone else to compare the optioned out LS430 with Euro-Sport vs. a base S430? Talk about a double standard. Even if the LS430 was equipped with these options, it still wouldn't be a BMW... or even an S for that matter, especially given the Lexus interpretation of "sport" that translates to "slightly more consistency than Jell-O with a hair less body roll than a boat". On another note, it is both humorous and telling that Lexus advertises its cars with so much European flair in an effort to disguise its roots. The stodgy narrator on their commercials has an uppity European accent and now they try to market "Euro sport" suspension... why not "Japanese Sport" suspension? Sounds like Lexus is trying to be something it isn't.
Most every comparo I read says the car was competent but not very exciting. We've already had someone post the braking distance and the LS won by a foot. (hardly a win). And what exactly are the significance of skipad numbers? I take it we all race our cars somewhere on a track..Get real. Even the 0-60 numbers are pointless. Most of us just drive around town or to work with these cars. What's your point about a S500/600/55? It's not even a fair comparo to begin with. I would hope a 5.0L V8 or V-12 would run faster. You can only compare the S430 to the LS and not the S500.
You're glossing over the details. Not only is the LS "not very exciting" in every comparo imaginable, but it's also the worst overall performer… every time. Wake me up when Lexus engineers a car that doesn't perform and handle like a bus. I don't have my Consumer Report library in front of me at the moment, but it would be interesting to see how the LS scored against the S430 in other performance aspects.
For 13K less, the LS430 has more standard features than the S430. I shopped for both and I know what I'm talking about. They wanted 73K for a S430 4 Matic with Nav and a few other things. My 62K LS430 has way more features than the S430, and there is not a huge difference in performance. The LS is more spirited and comfortable, whilst the S is a bit harsher in ride but better at high speeds.
For 13K less, you may get a better ratio of standard features, but once you add options to an S-Class you get more features overall. Besides, Lexus makes you pay for things like navigation and pre-safe, both of which Mercedes includes as standard. Anyway, something about your statement makes me skeptical. You say that you were looking at an "S430 for $73k" with "4-Matic, Nav and a few other things." Well that's very interesting considering that Navigation has been standard since the 2000 model year (optional with Lexus) and 4-matic is currently a no cost option (not available with Lexus).
The frame construction is probably the biggest factor in the equation here. Electronics as you've mentioned aren't going to make a huge difference. I've mentioned the Airbus vs Boeing Argument. And you've failed to realize no sane CEO of any airline would fly a plane that was not as safe as a competitor. No competent industry insider would dare imply an Airbus is unsafe since it has fewer safety features than a 747.
What are you talking about? If, as you say, an Airbus has fewer safety features than a 747, it is by default less safe... Hands down. More safety features = greater safety. CEOs pull this kind of crap all the time right under people's noses. The same is true in the auto-industry. The CEO of Lexus figures he can get away with skimping on safety features and waiting many years before adopting innovations pioneered by others because he knows that most people are ignorant sheep who can't tell the difference. Those loyal to the Lexus cult are eager to drink their special punch because they figure that Lexus can do no wrong, without even checking things out for themselves. For example, I think it was michael_mattox that didn't know that his LS didn't have rear side airbags... he just assumed it did. Assuming that a company “wouldn’t risk building an unsafe car” is completely absurd. Companies do it all the time… just look several GM and older Fords.
It's like putting PreSafe in a Kia..You think all those electronics are going help if the Frame isn't built well? I'm sure MB has a great frame construction, but so does Lexus. I've taken a real world crash in my LS400 and it barely moved despite being hit at 35MPH from the side. Granted there was 7K worth of damage to it, but it kept everyone in the car safe
Yes, frame strength is one aspect that contributes to overall safety. But I’m not sure why you assume that Lexus has equally good frame construction. Personal anecdotes are nice but aren’t exactly the best indicator of vehicle safety. I’m sure that more than one person has wrapped their Cavalier around a tree and lived to tell about it, but I think that both of us can agree that the Cavalier is probably one of the least safe cars on the road. Just because you got lucky one time doesn’t mean anything. Now, I’m not saying that the LS is unsafe per say, but I am saying that you can buy safer.