Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Mar 05, 2005 (8:59 pm)
think there is a reason for why Japanese cars look bland to you. The reason is many new cars are Japanese brands. For example, everytime i stop at traffic lights i will see either corollas or civics. For some occassion, i even saw 3 or 4 civics at once. Therefore, even the car with greatest style in the world will look bland after millions driving in one.
Nah a good looking car looks good no matter how many times you see it. VWs are plentiful too and the Passat in particular is still a very good looking. Where I live on a good Saturday you'll see more Mercedes/BMW/Lexus than you could count and the story is always the same, German lookers and Japanese blanders. What I find really interesting about Lexus is that their chief has shot his mouth off about this new look and so far the car have only come out looking worse, especially the GS. Now the new IS does hold promise. It has the small tight, lithe look of the best European cars, at least in pics.
One element of good styling is the way the sheetmetal appears to be stretched over the chassis just enough to cover the wheels. Another is no space in the wheel wells. Look at an Audi to see what I mean here. This is one reason why the 7-Series BMW is so ugly, their is too much space in the wheel wells. Ditto for the 5-Series which depends greatly on color and wheel size to look good. The Japanese are getting better at this, but in the past Nissan and Toyota were terrible with this. Any Maxima up until the 2004 model looked like it had an air suspension locked in the highest postion possible. Acres of space between the tire and the body. Mercedes and Audi lead the way in styling, imo. Nothing from Japan even comes close to a E, M3, CL, SL A6, or A8.
Infiniti is getting there for sure, they're way ahead of Lexus on looks.
#8271 of 24726 Re: ljflx [merc1]
Mar 05, 2005 (11:30 pm)
"How can anyone that fancies Lexus styling call any other brand of car bland is beyond me"
For you Merc1, you'd make everyone think that Lexus owners don't live in the real world. And their Lexus is all they care about....Just absolute nonsense...
"How easy is it to post picture of a 1971 Benz and call it bland."
To prove how truly BLAND and ugly those MBs were. You'd look at them and call them classic; I'd look at them and call them UGLY.
"Lexus' entire 2005 Lexus lineup stylistically forgettable at best"
Really ? Then car styling must be totally out of fashion, when you consider that these bland Lexus cars and trucks COMBINED are the #1 selling brand in the entire NA market. And the beautiful Audis and MBs are going backwards in sales, and hence, market demand. Hmmmmm.... Interesting, don't you think ? If I understand you correctly, buyers of Lexus have no styling taste whatsoever, right ? While those beautifully-styled MBs and Audis are just so gorgeous buyers cannot wait to buy them..... Something happened on the way to the bank, buyers quickly found out that exterior styling is only skin-deep, whereas build quality, reliability and excellent customer service are what matters most. Hence LEXUS' success. Need we remind you most ardent MB fans that you do not even own an MB, nor would you even buy an MB today. Or would you ? Enquiring minds will like to know !
"70s and 80s Toyota looked like the junk they were...."
Wanna know what JUNK is ? Ejerod's 2001 and 2002 S500 ? Those were as junky as junk can ever be. Comparing $20-30K Toyota cars of the 70s with $90K+ 2001 and 2002 MBs. Which is junk-ier ? You be the judge...
Mar 06, 2005 (3:04 am)
Consumer Reports is coming out again with it's
auto issue. here is a link about the upcoming issue.
a couple of interesting things. first the Lexus GS is the top Lexus. i find this strange because Lexus hardly sold any GS's last year. this leads me to believe the samples that Consumer Reports use are extremely small and therefore imo not credible. and Audi is right behind Lexus 11% to 12%. you know what this means to me...nothing. when it comes to purchasing an automobile CR's is a very small informative tool when making a decision. to rely solely on what they say is "better" is imo ridiculous. when they start reporting how many surveys they received for each vehicle and year i would feel more comfortable.
i am amazed that people look to CR's Jdpowers as being gospel when it comes to automobiles. keep in mind they are selling you news. they make their money hyping even the smallest of differences between automakers. keeps a roof over their head. just like newspapers, news channels and the like the more they can hype and sell the better "they" do. all information needs to be filtered and weighed with your own personal experiences.
i receive CR's. i did not fill out a survey. i don't remeber getting one. who know's my 1 survey might have put Audi over the top! i sent them an email last week asking them for information on how they come about their opinions. specifically sample size for the cars in this thread. they have not emailed me back as of yet. i wonder what everyone would think if CR's only receives 20-30 S class surveys a year...if that and even less for the A8.
#8274 of 24726 Re: Consumer Reports [denaliinpa] Bottom 5 and tally caveat
Mar 06, 2005 (6:08 am)
Good article, well reported by LA Times, except some details important in this forum (imho) were missing.
Here's the bottom 4 of the CR list in terms of problems per hundred cars.
BMW 21 19
Volkswagen 23 19
Mercedes-Benz 25 22
Lincoln Ford 26 31
Here's a quote on response rates:
"Some brands, including Hummer, Isuzu, Jaguar, Kia, Mini, Mitsubishi and Porsche, were not rated because of insufficent owner responses."
CR made it very clear that cars with insufficient responses weren't rated.
One more Audi return wouldn't have changed it's problem per vehicle rate. Statistically it's unlikely that 100 more Audi returns or any one car brand or model would have changed the numbers. That's the way statistics works. It may be hard to understand but study can always help.
Mar 06, 2005 (6:44 am)
Denali (or is it denial?) if you are still in denial about JDP and CR reliability data, I suggest you do a web search for extended warranty companies and price out an extended warranty for a 2005 MB and a comparably-priced 2005 Lexus.
The results might be illuminating.
#8276 of 24726 Re: ljflx [merc1]
Mar 06, 2005 (7:17 am)
Well merc1 - I love the look of my LS, think the new GS is a great looking car, love my GX470 styling and the new IS looks great. I've never been a fan of the ES, but many like it and the RX is perfect for it's market. The LX470 is a classic, albeit outdated style and the SC430 I have liked from day one. Your problem is you want every car to be a racy design and then the line-up is a hit - in your view of course which is not held by the buying public. Otherwise how would Lexus even selll a car. But MB never had any widespread sporty or racy designs and as OAC states it really all started with the headlights on the E in 96 and accelerated with the new S design in 2000. Before that they were bland cars and of course much higher quality relative to the market.
Yes my wife and I always had a desire for that old SL but looking at it now in that picture it is a boxy very bland design.
#8277 of 24726 Re: denali [syswei]
Mar 06, 2005 (7:58 am)
nobody is in "denial". all i am trying to point out is that the surveys that the seem to appeal to the Lexus buyer so much are limited in value and scope. i would assume that when shopping for a vehicle that most people would purchase one that they actually like but, by judging from some of the posts on this thread i think i would be wrong.
as for the style of earlier MB models i think everyone is forgetting the super bland Toyota Cressida. it was a box on wheels. even in the first photo the MB hood has move curves and bends than the current LS430 has today over the entire exterior surface!
like i said earlier...until we as consumers have some idea of the minimum sample that CR's uses we have to take with a grain of salt their opinions and actually use the brains we were born with and make a decision. if not....is everyone here going out to the local Subaru dealership to trade our vehicles in for CR's new number 1?
as for extended warranty pricing. the S has many more engines, drive trains, and options. plus it is a larger car that is priced higher. so it makes perfect sense to me that the extended warranty would cost more. whether or not most people agree with me and i am sure everyone who drives a Lexus on this board won't....price decides 99% of everything. the LS is cheaper...Lexus should sell more units.
55k vs 70+k. to me that is simple statistics that i don't have to "study" to understand.
geez...nobody mentioned Audi's results....hmmmmmmm.
#8278 of 24726 Re: denali [denaliinpa]
Mar 06, 2005 (8:06 am)
Here you go. You don't need to read the whole story because it won't make you happy. Just read the 4th paragraph and wake up and smell the roses about how important CR is to the buying public vs. slanted auto mags that hype performance cars 90% of the time with no consideration to the things CR focuses on. By the way even in its last year of production on an outdated style the GS will outsell the A8 by 3:1. So of course CR will get plenty of data on it.
#8279 of 24726 CR Survey particularly important in lux and high perf buying
Mar 06, 2005 (10:20 am)
In a post above you said "i receive CR's. i did not fill out a survey. i don't remeber getting one."
Then in 8277 you said "all i am trying to point out is that the surveys that the seem to appeal to the Lexus buyer so much are limited in value and scope."
I am mystified as to how you made that conclusion.
I think that the independent work that is done by Consumer Reports is the standard for testing consumer products, including automobiles of every variety.
Their work is the ethical standard of the industry and given the impact of their ratings, and like JDPowers, if they were off-base, the lawyers from every 'offended' automaker would be filing suit to get them rescinded or changed.
None of the car companies make a peep when the CR ratings come out except for the ones that move up the ladder. Everybody in the business knows that the reports reflect reality.
These reports and surveys are VERY important in the Edmunds discussion because the CR reports and road tests are funded by consumers, not by advertisers.
In addition CR has the most advanced, independent test facility in the world for measuring car performance. And their testers are unbiased by 'orientation', i.e. car buff, racer-head, greenie, etc. or 'target audience' car buyers, advertisers, etc. The problem with the mags and most auto-related web pages is that the testers ( aka, journalists ) have agendas.