Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Mar 05, 2005 (11:43 am)
"And why should production be the concept ? I work in a firm that puts out prototypes. Trust me, the final product is often much different from the prototype. That is what marketing input and meeting market demand is all about....
Here is the problem. It seems that all Lexus types like to equate the car business with other type of business and they aren't always the same. Carmakers use concept cars to gauge public reaction, very true. They also use them preview a new product and I know you know this, but for the sake of covering for Lexus' lame concept cars you have to spin it using a business angle. I don't care about what other businesses do. In the car business most car makers try to come as close to the concept as possible for their production vehicle. Don't think this is true? There are many examples of concepts coming to market looking more or less like their concept versions: Dodge Viper, Porsche Boxster, Mercedes GST, BMW Z9 (6-Series), BMW X3, Pontiac G6 and others. You mean to tell me that the concept Jaguar just made the auto show rounds with, the Advanced Lightweight Concept the precursor to the next XK8 is going to change wildly from concept to production. If you really beleive this about concept cars then you don't know the purpose of having a concept car in the first place. Its to get you ready for the new look or a new model. Why would they turn around and change this if the public reacts favorably to the concept? Unless you're telling me that Lexus customer hated their concepts so they changed it to produce the ugly new GS?
The Lexus IS looks nothing like that small 2-door concept they showed last year and like I said the new GS doesn't look anything like the sedan concept that all of you all were confused about last year. First it was the new GS and then it was the new IS, yet it turned out to be neither, now comes the excuse about what other industries do.
If I remember right the "reaction" to Lexus' sedan concept last year, the LF-X whatever it was, was very favorable right? So if Lexus listens so much why did the GS turn out looking like a whale? Guess Lexus went deaf after Detroit 2004.
"Read footie's response to this. Which goes like this: Germany doesn't think it owes its customers a right to decide what the style of their cars should be. Lexus, OTOH, takes the exact opposite route"
Are you serious? Lexus gives their customers a say in how their cars look? Is that why the current LS model has spent its entire life looking like a previous S-Class Mercedes? I'm sure all you LS430 owners wanted something more exciting than a 1992 Mercedes design. This is nonesense of the highest order and again an excuse to cover up the fact Lexus is basically clueless about styling in general and concept cars. The only concept that they have shown that will probably make it to market looking anything like the concept is their last one, the sports car shown at Detroit this year.
I remember it like it was yesterday all you Lexus folk got so excited about that supposed GS concept only to be let down by the GS when it finally showed up to be a whale of a car with none of the concept's sleek and airy appearance. Long time Lexus advocates on the other boards were even disgusted. Is this the example of Lexus letting their customers decide what their cars look like? Complete nonesense and reaching at best.
#8255 of 24726 Merc1
Mar 05, 2005 (11:57 am)
Now let's talk about styling. That, oh so subjective of all topics.... Haven't been through this before ? I bet. But I am happy to oblige you here.
Contrary to your negative views of the 2006 GS, a greater majority of those who have actually seen this car in person liked it much better than the pics showed. The new GS is better than any of the Bangled BMWs out there today. No contest there. MBs and Audis are always pretty sharp, style-wise, I give you that. But I have repeatedly told you that MB styling only got better in the 90s. The older MBs are stodgy, slab-sided, but highly functional, rock-solid build and of excellent overall quality. Its only in the '90s MB began the styling direction with their bug-eyed E-series. So, let's give Lexus its due props... The company is only 15 years in the Luxury car/truck business, unlike BMW and MB's long heritage of producing crappy-looking, but highly efficient automobiles until much recently.
I guess, the long-and-short of my post here is simply this: Lexus styling will evolve over time, and they'll only get better at it. The LF concepts (A, C, S, X) are all in the right direction. Watch Lexus take off by MY2007 with the launch of the re-designed LS. This will re-launch Lexus globally at a time of MBs greatest weakness and vulnerability. Trust me, you don't want to be in MB's shoes with a new look Lexus company, propped up with $20B of Toyota profits going against a weakend and highly vulnerable MB. The battle promises to be a lotta fun from here. Just watch and learn something about the business of car making....
Mar 05, 2005 (12:08 pm)
Contrary to your negative views of the 2006 GS, a greater majority of those who have actually seen this car in person liked it much better than the pics showed."
But did you? What does the majority have to do with anything? Lexus buyers will adore anything Lexus makes regardless of how it looks, the LS, ES, RX prove that. You seem to imply that I haven't seen the car in person. I saw it over a year ago and again this year and now on the road, and its and ugly whale of a car, imo.
"The new GS is better than any of the Bangled BMWs out there today. No contest there. MBs and Audis are always pretty sharp, style-wise, I give you that. But I have repeatedly told you that MB styling only got better in the 90s. The older MBs are stodgy, slab-sided, but highly functional, rock-solid build and of excellent overall quality. Its only in the '90s MB began the styling direction with their bug-eyed E-series. So, let's give Lexus its due props... The company is only 15 years in the Luxury car/truck business, unlike BMW and MB's long heritage of producing crappy-looking, but highly efficient automobiles until much recently.
All highly IYO because while I won't pretend that MBs always looked as good as they do now, but they were far from crappy looking. Going by how 80s Toyotas used to look and that first ES250 Lexus' cars would have looked even worse than those slab-sided Benzes. I find nothing wrong with the looks of the 1981-1991 S-Class or the SEC coupe from the same years, timeless to me. The 1986-1995 E-Class also had a timeless Mercedes look, especially the 300CE/E320 Coupe from those years (1988-1995). Hardly "crappy" looking.
Toyota on the other hand has long been a the very bottom on the styling scale. Stylewise Lexus hasn't earned any "props" with me since the original SC300/400 and until I see this new IS in person...
Yes I'm one of the few that like the new 5-Series, but I still can't stand the 7-Series. My problem with the 5-Series isn't styling so I don't think the GS looks better in that regard.
Styling it seem as everyhing else reverts back to Lexus and Toyotas profits and how they're going to take over the world. Time for a new line as that one is past tired. All the money in the world doesn't always mean the best products, maybe from a reliability standpoint, but not even Toyota/Lexus has hit all homeruns with every product.
Mar 05, 2005 (12:20 pm)
I've researched the last gen XJ (98-03) alot and have noted a steep improvement in reliability. I'm pretty sure Jag is on the way up in this regard, but their ratings drop with every introduction of the new model. The new XJ is a disappointment. It looks too much like the X-Type, and doesn't have that classic Jaguar look to it. It's almost like the prom queen who's put on a few too many pounds. (apologies to any women on this board..) I'm strongly considering buying a 03 XJ8 once I get back to the US. I've seen so many in London and they look outstanding.
I'd the first to agree with you on the styling argument. The only LS I like is the 92 that I still have. The 2005 is a significant improvement on the '02 that I had..Its' profile is not as sleek as I like though..It was part of the reason I considered the S Class before I got my new car.
The recent Lexus styling is even blander..I maintain that the original designs were the best ones. The GS looks "okay" and the IS does look interesting. RX, LS, SC are all just okay. The ES just looks really weird. I think the rear is elegant but the front look is like a smiling bug.
It's why I'm hot for the XJ8..It may have some issues, but it's still the looker of the lot. (At least the old one) I feel that manufacturers are compromising looks for aerodynamics. I haven't seen a real stunner from anyone in recent time. I don't think all of the 80's MB's were slab sided. I'd still buy a mid 80's SL in a second if they still made it. IMHO the 80's Benzes were quite elegant and looked solid.
#8258 of 24726 Merc1
Mar 05, 2005 (1:22 pm)
Let's see MBs styling trend from the '70s to date. Judge for yourself.....
1989 SL560 Coupe
1990 MB styling:
1993 MB 600SEC
1996 MB E320
2000-and up MB styling
Mar 05, 2005 (1:24 pm)
Um, I think merc1's feelings about MB's styling have been well-established.
It is time for some of you folks to agree to disagree and move on.
#8260 of 24726 Re: [pat]
Mar 05, 2005 (1:29 pm)
Uhm, Pat... Has that "link" issue being fixed now ? I kinda think so, but want you to confirm. Remember my deal ?
#8261 of 24726 Re: [oac]
Mar 05, 2005 (1:33 pm)
To my knowledge, it has not - and that has nothing to do with the fact that it is time to agree to disagree on these issues which some of you keep beating into the ground. It is beyond obvious whose minds are not going to be changed no matter what is said by whomever else.
We are in an area where the comments are too repetitive and too personal and not doing anything but driving other members off. That's not what we're about here.
Let's move on.
#8262 of 24726 Re: [oac]
Mar 05, 2005 (3:54 pm)
Hmm, maybe the link problem has been fixed?? I've seen one link that I would have thought might be broken and it's not - but it wasn't long enough to make me sure. Guess time will tell.
#8263 of 24726 Re: Oac [merc1]
Mar 05, 2005 (4:28 pm)
I think there is a reason for why Japanese cars look bland to you. The reason is many new cars are Japanese brands. For example, everytime i stop at traffic lights i will see either corollas or civics. For some occassion, i even saw 3 or 4 civics at once. Therefore, even the car with greatest style in the world will look bland after millions driving in one. After i got my LS i start to appreciate how Japanese put perfection and innovative ideas with carefully managed details. Everything you touch is polished and soft. The rear seats are filled with choices. (i loved the rear seat accessible cool box)My past S430 is a strip down car compare to that but it cost me at least 10k more.(not to mention the repair cost)