Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Mar 03, 2005 (9:50 pm)
There is an article in the April issue of Automobile that you're just going to love. It is titled "Losing the Luster" and it shows a cracked MB star. It basically says what you've been saying all along and what I've been saying too. While quality is down, perception to the general public is still sky-high for Mercedes, especially in Germany which is where most of this article concentrates. This is why I've said since 2001 when you first started with your "fall from the top" theory about Mercedes, that it isn't going to happen as quick as you said it would and it hasn't, at least not yet. Am I saying it couldn't happen? Of course not. Will it happen? Yep, if they don't correct their issues before perception catches up with reality. The article also goes on about how good the Germans are at marketing their cars and that obviously reliability isn't everything because if it were "the world would drive Toyotas", another point I made in the beginning. I have never said that their reliability problems are not important or that they didn't have one, I take issue with the doom and gloom cheering that is posted here because it is silly. Like come March 5th the end will be here.
#8216 of 24726 tiag_m5
Mar 03, 2005 (10:04 pm)
Since we've resorted to digging up owners to add hype to the board. There is a BMW owner on the LS board who took the LS430 out for a spin and brought it back in 10 mins because it was too lame in the driving department. Very interesting. Now they're telling him to try the "Euro" model like it will come anywhere near driving like a BMW. Wishful thinking at best.
#8217 of 24726 Buy into reliability or Brand Name?
Mar 03, 2005 (10:15 pm)
Back into 80s and 90s, people just wanted to get a ride in a MB because it was the class leader for quality ride, luxury, status, and reliability. For a generation, my family and i loved the brand for years and kept getting another 1. Wait till i got my S430 (2002), i finally realized the importance for the quality control and reliability. First the oil gauage were crying for hungry all the time. have it in dealer for 4 times, it just did not want to be fixed. After that, i had to count miles in order to make sure i will not sit in the city jungle without gas. Even worse, warning lights were flashing all the time. When i got to the dealer, the reply was just disappointing: they didnt bother to check to c if there were some problems in the car. They just put u in a waiting list (longer than 3 months) and let u drove around with warning lights on. The electronic qualities are also nightmares and some buttons feel losely fitted 2. The only thing i am happy about is the high resell value of the car?! I dunno who is going to buy my car, with over $4000+ fixing bill to pay within the first 3 years, but I know he should be blind and stupid.
Mar 04, 2005 (4:38 am)
Read post 6988 in the LS forum. It's from a 7 series convert. If you looked at my posts in the same forum, I openly said the dynamics of the LS will be lacking to a 5 Series owner. Most magazines deem the LS has "unexciting, yet competent." It's not going to drive like a barge, but not like a sports car either.
Our responses are linked to the base model. I would never buy a base LS. Most of the touted features are missing on the car. You maybe able to get "closer" to the BMW experience by getting the Euro or Air Suspension and 18" tires..My last LS was an Euro Suspension model, it definitely rode stiffer. (It's part of the reason I got rid of it..Too harsh for me)
Also what's the point of a Lexus without Mark Levinson and the Navigation System? It's like you say, it's their chief marketing tool. Even some of the more interesting things are missing like Backup Camera, Bluetooth, and Voice activated controls. (Note these are all gimmicks, but they are interesting ones). We all just wanted our BMW friend to get the same experience we all did. As I said in the previous post, every person has their different tastes. I can respect that..
In the Lexus LS forum, I've posted a few pictures of all the LS cars I've owned over the years. Which do you all think is the best? I still think the '92 was the best, but my wife thinks the '05 is better.
Jaguar on the bottom again?! I thought they were improving!! Argh, I was seriously thinking about buying one too..
#8219 of 24726 Re: tiag_m5 [merc1]
Mar 04, 2005 (4:45 am)
Yes but that BMW owner was impressed with the GS 430 which really came close to a BMW experience. Only this BMW owner wasn't born yesterday and he will have nothing to do with a 16% spread between invoice and MSRP, the latter probably being the selling price for the next few months.($8000 price differential).
Mar 04, 2005 (5:10 am)
"In the Lexus LS forum, I've posted a few pictures of all the LS cars I've owned over the years. Which do you all think is the best? I still think the '92 was the best, but my wife thinks the '05 is better."
Well your 1992 LS400 came in just one year short of the only LS I ever even remotely liked, the 1993-1994 model. Why you ask? Well 1993 was the year the car got standard 16 inch wheels and painted valances at the bottom, it really tied the car to the road better than 1990-1992 models. Thats styling wise. I'm sure your 2005 model is the best one of the lot engineering wise because after all it has 15 years of progress over than original 1990-1994 model and the 1995-2000 model was just completely forgettable to me, the blandest luxury car ever devised imo.
I'm afraid I've never been a fan of any LS. The only Lexus I really liked was the original SC400/300 Coupe. Now that was a Lexus I wouldn't have had a problem owning back in the day. One of my best friends has a 1995 SC300. This new IS is also promising, at least so far.
#8221 of 24726 hpowders
Mar 04, 2005 (5:12 am)
I knew you would like the GS better than the LS, my post about that was a just shot fired at the previous hype about owners and what not.
What markup on the GS are you talking about? How do you know this?
Mar 04, 2005 (5:20 am)
Although some of the Lexus owners around here use financial perspective to validate their purchases, this is not their impetus for buying. It's the luxury/reliability/bargain aspect that appeals to them, plain and simple.
You focus on marketing and financials because it is what you do for a living, just as I often focus on design for the same reason. But in the end we buy for more relevant and well-rounded reasons. I don't believe for one minute that financial-savvy people buy a car for any other reason than how the PRODUCT/SERVICE/BRAND appeals to them. Ditto for everyone else. You may say that the financial strength of Toyota/Lexus figures into your buying decision, you parse it a certain way and I believe you, but it is FAR from the top reason for owning what you choose to own.
You have admitted an affinity for the S, luxury and torque. However, I have to believe an S600 or S55 at twice the price of an LS short-circuits your personal sense of value. With the LS you believe you are getting more for less whether it is because of reliability, amenities or otherwise. The product and price hit your personal sweet spot—and most of this has nothing to do with the corporation. You may hobnob with other Lexus owners with whom you share common interests and philosophies, but lets remember, the financial world is rife with people who traipse around in varieties of MBs, Porsches and Ferraris, cars that completely subvert the traditional concept of the savvy or rational purchase.
BTW, I don't know how tall you are but if you are going to test the GS keep an eye out for headroom. My head hits the roof and I am only 6' 0". I think this alone will rule it out for many. Can't believe how small the car is. It looked bigger to me in the photos.
#8223 of 24726 Designman
Mar 04, 2005 (5:23 am)
Another way of putting it I guess.
#8224 of 24726 Re: Designman [merc1]
Mar 04, 2005 (5:29 am)
Yep, I'm a member of the Circular Talk Society. I admit it