Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#8173 of 24726 More Hype as Usual
Mar 02, 2005 (9:57 pm)
Its amazing the cycles we have here. Every year about this time we have the same harping about MB sales, yet each and every year-end its the same thing...a MB sales increase. Best example of meaningless hype if there ever was one.
Yet all the while the doom and gloom theorist continue with meaningless, baseless predictions.
Now we add to list of hysteria about buyers having pause over buying an MB because of MB's financial status, yet this is but a one person theory that has yet to be proven by anything other than the same old tired sales harping that we get on this board every year, usually in the first three months. Mercedes sales drop = crisis, Lexus sales drop = "The maligned 2006 GS twins are clearly doing well right out of the gate."
This is the same group so savvy about marketing trends and buyers habits yet doesn't realize that Jan-March are typically slow months for luxury car brands. Nearly every lux brand is down in sales for Jan and Feb, yet the only problem is with Mercedes who's buyers bought over 27K units in Dec, yet from Dec 31st to Feb 28th all of a sudden realized that shape that Mercedes' corporate ship is in and decided not to buy just that fast. This is the most ridiculous insinuation yet. Complete nonesense. All of a sudden for 2005 buyers have shifted and started reading whatever about MB so they quit buying in the span of two months.
Mar 02, 2005 (10:03 pm)
The thing in your reply that excited OAC is that you're trying to say that I said that the quality and financial well being of a company doesn't make any difference to buyers.
Stop. I said that the financial well being (basically all the Toyota profit stuff) of a company doesn't make a difference to most buyers. I have clearly said over and over that quality surveys and the like do keep buyers away from any brand that doesn't do well on them, including Mercedes. You're trying to tie your off-base theory about buyers caring about profits and corporate matters to them caring about reliability reports. The ultimate spin from you. They aren't the same thing.
If you aren't going to quote me correctly then please don't bother because that isn't what I said.
One minute buyers are clueless in buying a Mercedes because they are blinded by prestige and styling, yet in another they are way to smart to be fooled. Which is it?
Mar 02, 2005 (10:10 pm)
It never fails. Every year around this time we get the sales stuff from you and just like in the first quarter of 2004 sales were down for MB and BMW (last year), but they rebounded only to give MB and BMW increases for the year. You'll be proven wrong again at the close of 2005.
What is the point? Lexus had a drop in every model except their new GS and ditto for Mercedes except for their new CLS and SLK. They're in the same sales boat yet you and Ljlfx are predicting the worse for MB, yet Lexus had the same sales drop. Do you see why this obvious hype wasn't taken seriously last year and won't be for this year? The second (incorrect) straight year of this I might add.
How is what I said to Ljlfx in the "opposite direction". He implied something and no buyers on any board anywhere here even hinted at caring about what he says they should care about, the financial status and earning of a company. I never said that buyers didn't care about quality and reliability reports.
#8176 of 24726 Re: More of the same... [flyfisher1]
Mar 02, 2005 (10:12 pm)
Your point is well taken...The A8 is far too slow to race in this group...even with a 46hp advantage.
I would love to the safety figures you are referring to. Are you saying there is A direct comparison between A8 and LS430 in Edmonds? and that Comparison includes safety tests?
#8177 of 24726 Re: Mercedes ABS problems rated common [footie]
Mar 02, 2005 (10:19 pm)
Wow, that E-bay seller site that you provided is so professional and no doubt 100% indicative of Mercedes reliability issues. (Sarcasm).
I didn't see Lexus parts on the list.
No joke? Maybe that's because this is a European site and Lexus really isn't a brand in Europe. However, on that same site I found a Toyota recall for the power steering pump on the Toyota Avensis... Ouch that can't be very safe.
Looks like Toyota had to recall 150,000 Camry's because of faulty side airbags: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls04/toyota_camry.html
And this site shows other safety related problems arising in bullet proof Toyota/Lexus cars: http://www.geinsurancesolutions.com/erccorporate/resources/pc/pro- - - - - duct_recalls/
Mostly just minor things like 400,000 Camry's being recalled because of "defective brakes" and 34,000 Seinna being recalled that "Do not comply with safety standards." What about "axel bolts may losen," and various Lexi with "Defective brake lights"?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that MB or others haven't had issues, but you make it sound like Toyota/Lexus is invincible. The ponit is, saying that MB safety features will fail when you need them is absurd.
* I can't get the geinsurancesolutions site to post correctly, so you will have to take out the hyphens between "pro-" and "-duct" with no space for the link to work.
#8178 of 24726 tiag_m5
Mar 02, 2005 (10:24 pm)
I wouldn't bother debating that. It was just too disingenuous to begin with for them to suggest that Lexus doesn't ever have a part fail by them saying that they couldn't find any re-manufactured Lexus parts on that website.
#8179 of 24726 Re: More of the same... [michael_mattox]
Mar 02, 2005 (10:40 pm)
Ok I just read the Edmonds compairson and there have been NO safety tests done on the A8
It is difficult how you can say the A8 is safer using the Edmonds data?
Mar 02, 2005 (10:45 pm)
Those of us who own the LS..don't find it hard to believe that so few parts fail that re-manufactured lexus parts are just not something that would have a decent sales volume.
And it is hard to debate such a stark example of Lexus quality....my heart goes out to you there.
#8181 of 24726 Re: Oac [merc1]
Mar 02, 2005 (11:09 pm)
"You'll be proven wrong again at the close of 2005."
"....you and Ljlfx are predicting the worse for MB..."
I made no predictions, so no need to be proved wrong. And you should note that I provided the same reports for all the luxury brands *most* discussed around here (MB, Lexus, Audi, BMW).... Fair is fair... You and anyone else can read whatever you like into these numbers. Feel free to defend whatever, I am certainly not defending Lexus or BMW or Audi.... I have no stock in any of these auto companies, so no need to play defense.
#8182 of 24726 Re: More of the same... [michael_mattox]
Mar 02, 2005 (11:10 pm)
Because they are not the same cars...What Lexus is the Rav 4...Or the Chevy that you showed...Even the Camery which shares a platform with ES only shares 25% of the ES total content...Further all the Models shown were old and out of date most from the 90S.
But you see, all of those cars were Toyotas. Toyota and Lexus are the same company, so you shouldn't expect "Lexus" to be held to a higher standard of safety than the rest of the Toyota line. Yes most of those are older models, but think of it this way: If it took Toyota/Lexus this long to get their frontal crash tests in order (which they prepare for in advance), how can you expect them to perform in real world crashes where they aren't held accountable through testing?
Are you saying that A8 and Mercedes S have better performance..When you have already acknowledge that Lexus LS has better Acceleration...it has better 0-60 times then Audi...
Sorry but 0-60 times aren't the only measure of performance. I would rather have a car that handles and stops well (S) than an unbalanced whale that screeches its way around the track (LS). And trust me, if the S430 loses to the LS430 in 0-60 times, you can be sure that an S500/S55/S600 will walk all over it in this regard. I don't know much about the Audi A8 so I can't vouch for it, but my instinct tells me that it probably outperforms the LS in most, if not all, quantitative and qualitative areas of performance.
Here are a few of my favorite quotes concerning the chart topping performance of the poised and atheltic LS430: “skidpad grip was weakest of all, 0.73 g;” “Tires eager to squeal…never very involving on the back roads."
In contrast, the S class and others were universally lauded: “Mercedes was endowed with road grip exceeded only by that of the BMW;” “Three cars in the group (Mercedes, BMW, Audi) stand above the others, having braking distances of 169 feet or better, and skidpad adhesion above 0.82 g;” “Benz gave a first-rate account of itself as it slipped through the lane-change test at 57.4 mph... 4.3 better than the slow-guy Lexus.”
Safety...We have had that discussion and determined neither car has an edge..even though Mercedes invented Air Bags....40 years ago.
Actually, the S class does have an edge for safety. Unlike corner cutting Lexus, Mercedes includes rear side airbags as a standard feature in the S as well as across the model line. Also, the S class has pre-safe as standard equipment while Lexus makes you pay for their pre-collision system. And regarding the entire model line, Mercedes has a safety advantage on every car (Standard belt ETDs, standard belt load limiters, standard rear side airbags, standard rollover protection, etc). Lexus likes to skimp and trim on safety as can be seen throughout its model range, but I think this is perhaps most evident with the SC430... A $65k convertible that will literally grind your head off if it flips. The SL on the other-hand, has had the handy pop-up roll bar since 1989, as does the current CLK. Another interesting tidbit is that the side airbags on the SL and CLK (front and rear) are large enough to protect the head and the torso, whereas the side airbags on the SC430 (front only) protect just the torso... Looks like Lexus needs to do some more R&D with all that money they're making. I won't even get into the fact that Lexus is consistently 2-4 years behind the curve when it comes to adopting the new safety technology pioneered by other companies.
Just add up what we know about MB and Lexus and the answer is clear... or at least it should be if you have an open mind. Apparently you would rather ride in a car built by Lexus, the company slow to adopt safety features, the company with fewer standard/optional safety items, the company with a history of imitation and non-innovation. I would much rather ride in a car built by Mercedes, the company always on the cutting edge of safety, the company with the most available safety features , and the company with an unrivaled reputation for safety innovation.
To each his own…. ?