Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#8034 of 24723 Japanese Vs German
Feb 26, 2005 (2:26 pm)
Lexus and Mercedes are building their cars with totally different philosophies. Lexus' focus is building a car that emphasize reliability, tranquility and comfort rather than styles, performance and handling. In fact, Lexus's cars and light trucks performances are comparable with German counterpart but the first rush of thrust is replaced by gradual acceleration. For example, when I am looking for a replacement for my 2002 LS, the first car comes up to my mind is 2005 CLS. The CLS is the most beautiful sedan i had seen in years and the attraction is growing on me by days. I had test drive it and its driving experience and style just fit with one word, fantastic. But when i look at the Brochure, CLS looks slick but its coefficient of drag is 0.30, comparing to 0.25 with LS, and its acceleration is only 6.1 0-60, comparing to 6.3. Therefore, even the statistic is comparable, Lexus' cars just don't feel as fast as its German competitors. Lexus is also lack in performance department for high-tech sport tuners like AMG and BMW-M to raise its brand image and boost profit further. I believe this is the main reason why Lexus is losing sales battle with SC and GS. Furthermore, Lexus is also fell behind for its limited range of engines and length selection for LS. Fortunately, Lexus regains those lost by expanded with its 3 SUV lineup during this SUV crazed period. In the end of the story, I walked out from the mercedes and asked my friends and neighbors who owned mercedes in their garages, and the answers r unisonous, "Benz needs a lot of fixes and repaire". Due to its flaws, I dont believe Lexus will dominate the luxury market but it may attract most of the frustrating customers who wants trade for a more reliable ride. For me, I think i will stick to my good old lexus and replace it with 2007 LS.
#8035 of 24723 Re: Japanese Vs German [iancar]
Feb 26, 2005 (2:52 pm)
> .. Lexus' focus is building a car that
> emphasize reliability, tranquility and comfort
> rather than styles, performance and handling ..
The odd thing is that that was exactly the Mercedes sedan philosophy... until BMW started swaying too many yuppie buyers away from them with sportier dynamics. As BMW rose and rose, Mercedes got lured into increasingly going for the same value proposition. At some point in time, they had abandoned their traditional value proposition so much that there was a market void. Whether it was genius to identify the need and fill it, or whether that was the only philosophy that would have worked for Lexus anyhow and thus they just met a receptive market one will never know. But to me there is little doubt that Lexus did benefit from Mercedes having been lured away from their traditional approach by the more dynamic, flashier BMW challenge.
> .. CLS is the most beautiful sedan ..
They won't sell you one if you call it a sedan in the Merc dealership. They call them "coupes".
#8036 of 24723 Re: oac- well put! [hpowders]
Feb 26, 2005 (2:58 pm)
No but remember the intent was to redefine the way lux cars are sold. The Lexus branding is a lot more than what many on this board seem to understand. The LS was totally engineered for the US market which is another reason why that Celsior argument is so weird and foolish. Anyone who thinks the Celsior was the model that the LS became knows nothing about Toyotas grand plans in the 1980's. The profits they make now are pure proof the plan was an immense success.
#8037 of 24723 Re: oac- well put! [ljflx]
Feb 26, 2005 (3:18 pm)
Whatever they call it, hope to have one by August.
#8038 of 24723 Re: Lexus? you mean Toyota? [oac]
Feb 26, 2005 (3:20 pm)
like i said in my post....MB is not rebadging
vehicles and creating a new brand. it seems to me that when anyone speaks of Lexus automobiles and the brand Lexus they mention the LS430. well guys the LS is a very nice car....but one car does not make a luxury brand. most Lexus automobiles sold in the US are re badged Toyotas. maybe they should be called Lexota's? how's that for "castigating"?
so stripped down E classes are used as taxi cabs. that is nothing new. please explain to me
how this diminishes MB's luxury brand appeal?
as for the A class and smart. what really is the point? why not mention S65, Maybach? for our purposes in this discussion it is what's in the middle that seems to matter most.
you know guys i cross shopped the LS430. so it's not like i hate Lexus! i just find it completely unbelievable that anyone could think
Lexus to be a more substantial and luxury automobile brand than Mercedes Benz.
#8039 of 24723 Re: MB vs Lexus [pablo_l]
Feb 26, 2005 (3:24 pm)
i had two K1200RS's. it seems the times are changing at BMW motorcycles. more power...more speed...less wolf in sheeps clothing!
#8040 of 24723 Re: oac- well put! [ljflx]
Feb 26, 2005 (3:40 pm)
it seems to me that many Mercedes Benz owners are being accused of purchasing their cars out of some need for status. maybe...maybe not. on the other hand it seems to me that some Lexus owners feel the need to identify themselves with Toyota motor companies business success. it seems that peoples needs are met in a variety of ways...even if..... some of them are completely irrational.
#8041 of 24723 Re: Lexus? you mean Toyota? [denaliinpa]
Feb 26, 2005 (4:17 pm)
"so stripped down E classes are used as taxi cabs. that is nothing new. please explain to me
how this diminishes MB's luxury brand appeal? "
How does the LS430 being a Celsior diminish the LS430's luxury appeal?? AT least the LS430 or Celsior both come decked out with Leather, alloy wheels, power seats, etc.
#8042 of 24723 Re: !! [chris65amg]
Feb 26, 2005 (5:38 pm)
You stated that the Phaeton was a rebadged A8. You need to do your research. The A8's chassis is completely different in both structure and materials (i.e. the Audi is all aluminum, the Phaeton is a very heavy all steel car).
#8043 of 24723 Re: Lexus? you mean Toyota? [denaliinpa]
Feb 26, 2005 (6:06 pm)
Consider me unbeliavble then. I cross shopped to and drove the S many times.
Your slip is showing. I think many of us buy cars not brand. The latter is what Syswei's whole status issue is about. I find the LS430 a better luxurious car than the S500. The branding is irrelevant to me and on a scale of 1-100, they are both very close to the 100 benchmark. so how can you go wrong if luxury is your choice in either car. So you buy what you think suits you better and/or you have more confidence in. It's really that simple. If pure value was the cause I would never have wasted my time looking into the s-class.
By the way - you are the one who loves the sales count exclusion. Do the taxi cabs count as lux car sales in your view?