Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#7984 of 24726 Re: [michael_mattox]
Feb 24, 2005 (11:54 pm)
My 01 Ultra has Curtin side airbags in the back and side airbags in the front.
You are mistaken. No Lexus vehicle offers rear side airbags. Side airbags are different than curtain side airbags in that curtains protect the head and side airbags protect the torso. The LS430 has side curtain airbags for both rows, but it doesn't have rear side airbags. Only the front seats of the LS430 have side airbags to protect the torso, whereas MB and BMW offer these bags for both the front and back seats across their entire model line. Additionally, MB offers standard seat belt ETDs and force limiters for rear seating positions across the entire model line. Lexus only offers these devices on the ES and LS.
I am not sure what emergency telematrics is..I have to ask is that the thing where if you get into a crash or your air bag inflates a 911 call goes out automatically with the location of your car...I have that...Plus an Emergency button that I can Push...It all works through the GPS system
I guess I was partially mistaken. After doing more research I see that "Lexus Link" is available only on the LS 430, SC 430, LX 470 and GX 470. (MB and BMW offer this service on every model).
The Price Barrier is a Testement to Lexus construction Techniques...The fact Mercedes is Overpriced is a Bad thing...for them RIGHT?
I'm not sure why the fact that Lexus vehicles are cheaper is "a testament to lexus construction techniques"; more like a testament to pricing strategy and fewer available options. The fact that MB costs more than Lexus is indeed a bad thing for them because they sell fewer cars.
WHAT IS THIS INNOVATION..That results in 56% lower fatalities?.. Whatever it is I am sure My Lexus has it....Is it Airbags, Seatbelts, Crumple zones, VSC, ABS, ?...What pray tell are you talking about?
I mentioned that ESC (Electronic Stability Control) was a feature that MB pioneerd in 1995, that has resulted in 56% lower single vehicle fatalities and a 41% decrease in all single vehicle crashes. Both MB and BMW had this system in 1995. It took Lexus until 1999 to incorporate this system on the LS430, and even today you still can't get it on the IS300.
#7985 of 24726 Re: tiag_m5 [merc1]
Feb 25, 2005 (12:19 am)
What I have yet to be able to understand is how prestige makes up for a person not having the extra 10-20K to get that higher priced Mercedes. Prestige is a feeling or viewpoint, money is money and you either have it or you don't in order to buy up.
Exactly. Syswei is trying to pass off a ridiculous notion that the extra "prestige" of MB alone should mean that MB sells more cars than Lexus. Unfortunately, Prestige is but a small part of the Mercedes allure. People may aspire to own a MB for the prestige, others for safety, but many can't because they cost significantly more than the imitation... err I mean Lexus alternative.
It doesn't matter how you cut it, no amount of prestige is going to change the fact that MB models are out of many peoples' price range.
Oh yes, I need to correct an obvious typo before anyone tries to use it against me. When I said "Lexus costs more base vs. base and Lexus costs more loaded vs. loaded" a few posts back, I meant to post "Lexus costs LESS base. vs. base and Lexus costs LESS loaded vs. loaded."
What can I say? Iím tired.
#7986 of 24726 tiag_m5
Feb 25, 2005 (1:05 am)
On a different note I've noticed that the 2006 S-Class has gone on sale. This the final build-out for the S-Class. The AMG Sport package is no extra charge now according to mbusa.com.
#7987 of 24726 Re: tiag_m5 [merc1]
Feb 25, 2005 (2:03 am)
That is definitely some good news. The AMG sport package makes an already gorgeous car look even better! It was only a few years ago when the W220 S class revolutionized the high end luxury segment in the spring of '99. In some ways, it's sad to see that this will be the final production year. But of course, Mercedes is on to bigger and better things. I can't wait until the redesigned '07 W221 S class debuts this fall at Frankfurt! It certainly promises to be a show stopper.
#7988 of 24726 More of the same...
Feb 25, 2005 (4:22 am)
Shoddy engineering? Funny, I've never heard Lexus being accused of that..We all know Japanese electronics are second to none..I only bring up profits to show that Lexus is successful where it counts.
You keep missing the point: Prestige is nice, but it doesn't pay the bills..Profits do!! Hardly ramblings...You still haven't addressed the fact: How is it that Lexus sells for LESS and still makes more profit on the LS430 vs MB on the S430..
Merc is correct to say that MOST consumers of these cars probably don't consider profits..But I doubt they also care who was first to market the airbag or whatever.
" What about the fact that Lexus is perhaps the least safety conscious high end brand as shown by their inability to innovate? What about those facts?"
What facts? Least safety conscious? If so, they would do poorly in ALL safety tests. I looked at those links for the crash results..You pretty much confirmed what I thought..The LS got the highest rating and in fact was recommended for frontal collisions!!!! The RX and GS were marked down to Average in one category..This is hardly a basis to judge a car "unsafe" or "Shoddy engineering.." I noted your link on the rear crash performance. You may have a point there, but here's what they say:
"For each seat/head restraint, rear-end crash protection is an assessment of occupant protection against neck injury in rear impacts at low to moderate speeds. Although such injuries usually aren't serious, they occur frequently"
So basically 90% of the time the LS will hold up as well as the competitors. (In the frontal types of crashes) In the 10% where it may not perform as well the injuries usually aren't serious to begin with...This sounds like a marginal advantage at best...
Why don't you list the countless times Toyota has had bad crash results, and I'll counter with 15 years of JDP superiority and stories of your beloved German marques breaking down. I think we're even there. Why is it that a 1996 LS400 is more reliable than a 2002 7 Series..Now exactly how SAFE is a MB when the Airmatic Suspension quits on you? You're of course going to say this occurs hardly 10% of the time..But so is the case where the MB will outperform the LS..
Now how is it unfair that the S430 is compared to the LS? Using your logic, the S430 should be a fair comparison because it is priced higher. Yet the LS430 still beat it anyway. Someone already pointed out they didn't test the Euro Sport model. I read that comparo recently and said it was like comparing a person on slippery ballerina shoes to normal ones..Even THEY admit it wasn't fair..So what are you going to argue now???
You seem to say best value doesn't mean "best" overall..According to the recent Road and Track, Car and Driver, JDP, CR, and Resale Values, High price doesn't mean BEST either....You still don't explain why Lexus makes more Profit off the LS430 than MB makes off a S Class DESPITE being 15K less!!! You subscribe to the foolish notion that Pricier means better...Did you know a $15 Timex is more reliable and accurate than a 15K Rolex???
Sounds like the high price of the S is due to inefficiency more than price premium..Here's where profits are important: Less profit, less R&D..As far as I've seen it, Toyota has taken on R&D projects where it can profit immensely from. You're completely ignoring the whole business side to this.
Actually Boeing and Airbus differ big time on design. Fly by Wire vs Mechanical Controls is a HUGE issue in the aviation world. (Air Force 1 does not have Fly by Wire, despite it being available at the time) British Airways has insisted the 747 Advanced NOT have Fly by wire. The 747 has triple redunancy on all critical systems whereas the A340 has two. The 747 does have more innovative safety features than the A340, yet this has not stopped airlines from buying the Airbus..You should stop and think whether any corporation is going to open themselves up to lawsuits from a product that is "unsafe" or "poorly engineered"
Given that Lexus commands a high customer loyalty I doubt they'd risk their business by building cars that are unsafe. If they can spend $4 Billion on the original LS400 do you think they'd skimp on $500 electronics?? They've chose to spend their R&D on Award Winning Customer Service, NAV's, Hybrids, superior reliability, and cutting edge electronics whilst building a car that is STILL recommended by the NHTSA and various other agencies for safety..
#7989 of 24726 Re: tiag_m5 [tiag_m5]
Feb 25, 2005 (5:41 am)
Your comments are so ridiculous that I'll only give one statement back:
Do you have any reports of roofs collapsing on an LS car?? How do you explain all those early 1990 LS400's still riding around in such great shape?? Move on already - you'd give your blood for MB if you had to. Posts as long as yours aren't even readable and they'so so pro your favorite brand and putting down the brand you can't handle (roofs collapsing? - that was hillarious) that they can't even begin to be taken seriously. You remind me be one of those that puts a 1 score on an LS430 as a fake owner on MSN autos.
#7990 of 24726 Re: The ultimate test [garyh1]
Feb 25, 2005 (5:42 am)
And if pigs could fly....
The battle would still rage on. It would be like asking people to agree on the "right" color for a car. Post the Model A period there is no single answer, and it's unproductive to ask people to put aside two of the major discriminating factors between the S and LS and make a hypothetical decision. They don't cost the same or have equal reliability.
As tought in logic class, any If...then... statement is invalid and meaningless as soon as the if part becomes untrue.
Feb 25, 2005 (5:52 am)
I'm reading your post and it is clear that you aren't addressing the issues head on, you're countering with things that aren't even relevent it seems. Like:
"Why don't you list the countless times Toyota has had bad crash results, and I'll counter with 15 years of JDP superiority and stories of your beloved German marques breaking down."
The poster before was talking about safety engineering, and even after the results were posted that showed Lexus did score below Mercedes you still counter with JDP surveys and profits, which don't address the issues presented. Nobody claimed that Mercedes was as reliable or more reliable than a Lexus. I said about 60 posts or so ago that anything technical will be countered with surveys and profit statements, all irrelevent to the points being made by the opposition.
The fact that Mercedes, Volvo and Saab have teams dedicated to recovering and studying their products after they've been wrecked in real-world crashes gives them an advantage that isn't necessarily measureable in standardized crash testing.
Profits were never the issue, nor was reliability, safety was. Now you could link reliability to safety in certain ways sure, but profits have absolutely nothing to do with safety. Saab hasn't ever made any money for GM and Volvo makes very little money and yet they both build some of the safest cars on the road.
#7992 of 24726 Re: [tiag_m5]
Feb 25, 2005 (6:14 am)
C&D included a pre-refresh MB S class without the new 7 speed transmission and chose the smallest engine available, the S430, when a more fair comparison would have been the S500.
In what way is it fair to compare a 5.0 liter engined car against a 4.3 liter engined car, when both are available in 4.3 liter versions? Is this an Aryan concept of fairness or something? Maybe it was unfair to test a 4.3 against another 4.3 because the MB lost, when everyone knows that MB is really better and really "should" win?
If down the road a 2006 RX330 loses a comparo to a 2006 ML350, can I just say, "that was unfair, they should have tested the RX400h against the ML350"?
As for the 7-speed tranny, even with it the S430 is notably slower than a 6-spd LS430, 6.9 seconds vs 5.9 sec, 0-60.
#7993 of 24726 Re: Proof Would Be Nice [merc1]
Feb 25, 2005 (8:33 am)
I think it is enought to understand that if a car has dependability problems those problems are an indication of quality...Actually lack thereof.
If quality is lacking then problems can occure anywhere..ABS, ESP, Brake Assist or anywhere else.
I think it makes sense to buy quality and not have to worry about where the problem will occure.
But you no doubt would rather roll the dice...we are all different people with different needs and wants.