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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 799 of 2473

#7976 of 24723 Re: [syswei] by tiag_m5

Feb 24, 2005 (11:43 pm)

Replying to: syswei (Feb 24, 2005 8:16 pm)
Oh, so we should do this by number of innovations rather than their importance to the industry? OK, let's play it your way. Just visit the USPTO site and see how many patents have been issued to Toyota vs MB since 1990. Answer: Toyota 4906, MB 1998.
 
Yes but the question is how many of these patents were for worthwhile technologies. I would consider MB's patent for ESC of greater value than a Toyota patent for a new keyless entry remote. The sheer number of patents means nothing unless you know what the patents correspond to. Also, how do you know that 1500 of those Toyota patents aren't related to one complicated part, like the hybrid drive system?
 
In fact, larger size should help not hurt MB's S injury rates...as can be seen in the data, where the average "very large" car does better than the average "large" one.
 
Actually larger vehicles have more kinetic energy in collisions, so in a single vehicle crash, lighter (and well engineered) vehicles will fair better. Larger vehicles only have an advantage in multiple car accidents. This is generally the case for all cars, although a well engineered large car will certainly fair better in a single vehicle crash than a poorly engineered small car. The point is the larger size of the S isn't always an advantage although I guess it would be generally. It doesn’t matter anyway because this data is an inaccurate indicator of vehicle safety when the numbers are so close.
 
Your statement might be true if the average age of an S driver were 22 and the average for Lexus were 40, but I think you know better than that. You can't come up with hard numbers and neither can I. My guess is that average for both cars would be in the area of 45-58. IF it is higher for Lexus, do you realize that this would imply a greater number of people over, say 65, who may drive slower but also have slower reaction times and hence might be more accident-prone?
 
Neither of us can provide any hard numbers. But using intuition alone it is easy to understand why an S (or any other MB for that matter) would appeal to a younger, more reckless crowd, in addition to the older crowd that the LS430 caters to. But again, neither of us can show evidence of this... The bottom line is this: the IIHS injury data doesn't account for age, gender or personality demographics. Location demographics and a certain degree of randomness also play into this. The difference between the two cars in this particular measurement is so insignificant, that you really can't say either way given all the unknowns. However, I would argue that MB is safer because it incorporates more safety features into its cars and has a solid heritage as a safety leader.
 
But Mr. tiag_m5/jovialanus somehow left out part of the C&D comparo: the LS's "Acceleration is brisk: second best to 60 mph; third in the quarter, at 95 mph, as it showed taillights to three of the four Germans. Yet its fuel economy on our trip tied the Jag's at 21 mpg, topped the Audi's, BMW's, and Benz's by 2 mpg”
 
Wow, so it got second place in acceleration. That doesn’t outweigh the fact that it had the longest in class stopping distance, which in itself is a safety flaw. Also, you’re kidding yourself if you think different tires would have significantly affected the LS430’s performance. You might see a slight improvement, but nothing significant. It’s also interesting that C&D included a pre-refresh MB S class without the new 7 speed transmission and chose the smallest engine available, the S430, when a more fair comparison would have been the S500.

#7977 of 24723 garyh1 by merc1

Feb 24, 2005 (11:44 pm)

"That was your question. I believe my example is fully responsive to your question. The fact that MB has been having problems with its implementation of air suspensions for years, and Lexus added it later to its Ultras and has not had any problems reported with its version, directly makes the point that MB sets the standard that Lexus subsequently matches with greater reliability.
 
I don't think it does for the simple fact the amount of LS430s with air suspension is much less than the S-Classes of the world. Second air suspension is not a new technology and it certainly wasn't done by Mercedes first. My question to that poster was what specific MB innovations did Toyota/Lexus perfect later. Air suspension doesn't cut it. Lincoln and others have done it too with mixed results. How many LS430s are sold with air suspension? I'd be willing to bet not many.
 
The original claim was very specific about MB's orignal innovation being improved by Lexus, which I still haven't seen any proof of yet. Air suspension was done by others years ago and all Mercedes did was make it the standard for this class of car, of which everyone except BMW has now adopted either a air suspension option or made it standard. The 2000 S-Class, unreliability and all did that for this class of car. I bet the next LS moves upmarket to a space right under the 2007 S-Class, with an air suspension standard this time around.
 
"But I think that MB needs to be given more credit than some LS supporters want to give it for setting the bar that other manufacturers like Lexus have to shoot for. It's true in areas besides safety innovations, e.g. styling.
 
This is very true it seems that all the work of MB and others should be brushed aside because Toyota/Lexus has finally found something it can claim as a first...hybrids. While every car on the road including Lexuses have used and benefited from MB/Volvo and others many innovations over the years.
 
M

#7978 of 24723 Re: Japan... [oac] by tiag_m5

Feb 24, 2005 (11:53 pm)

Replying to: oac (Feb 24, 2005 9:09 pm)
What a tall statement to make ? So what does these things you state so emphatically translate to ? Poorer product ? Less safe product ? What ?
 
But the thing is, everything I said was true and verifiable. It is a well known fact that Lexus is generally slow to incorporate safety features into its cars. It is also well known that Lexus hasn't been the least bit innovative when it comes to safety. It would also be accurate to say that Lexus offers fewer safety features on its cars. Christ, you can't even find a Lexus with rear side airbags and the SC430 convertible doesn't even have roll-over protection.
 
I'm not saying that Lexus vehicles are inherently un-safe. I would much rather be in an accident riding in a Lexus than say a Pontiac. All I'm saying is that MB/Volvo/BMW offer more than Lexus does in this regard. The question comes down to this: would you rather buy a Lexus and have average safety and good reliability? Or would you rather buy a MB and have the best safety? I would gladly pay more for the latter. I guess it depends on your priorities...

#7979 of 24723 Re: syswei [merc1] by oac

Feb 25, 2005 (12:11 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Feb 24, 2005 11:21 pm)
"Mercedes' SL, CL, and S-Class sell at prices which there no Lexus model to even compare, pricewise. That doesn't limit their sales at all?"
 
Ahhh..... Let's ask a rhetorical question, Merc1, if price limits sale of the SL, CL and S-class, would any of these cars outsell its Lexus counterpart?
 
2004 sales:
SL/CL/CLK/SLK: 12,885/2,683/10,120/7,360
SC430: 9,708
 
Which, by my rough calculations, means that the MB coupes/verts selling in the $46K - $120K, outsold the $65K SC, by a wide margin... The much-higher priced SL-class alone outsold the much-lower priced Lexus SC430 by 3K units.... But price is NOT a factor, or is it?

#7980 of 24723 Oac by merc1

Feb 25, 2005 (12:17 am)

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say by that.
 
The SL just beats the SC430 to a pulp by all accounts outside of a CR survey so it would probably outsell the SC430 at any price.
 
My point is that price is but one factor and the sales race isn't so cut and dry like you and others constantly say it is. There are many factors that go into sales, but to say price isn't one of them simply isn't true.
 
Sales of sporty cars is one thing, but sedans are pretty constant. The SL and CL don't have any price competition from Lexus. The SLK and CLK do in price, and the sales are about even by your numbers.
 
My main point is about the S-Class and the LS430, which aren't even close in price, unless you lease...which not everyone does.
 
The SL and CL have the market to themselves when it come to Japanese luxury cars. Their competitors are from Jaguar, BMW, Aston-Martin and the like, not Lexus.
 
M

#7981 of 24723 Re: [syswei] by tiag_m5

Feb 25, 2005 (12:32 am)

Replying to: syswei (Feb 24, 2005 8:17 pm)
MB starts at 29,970, Lexus at 30,280. MB's product line BRACKETS Lexus' in price. If Lexus ran 30-70k and MB 50-140k you would have a valid point on price. But MB starts slightly lower.
 
So let me get this straight. You think that because the IS costs $310 more than a C230 that Lexus cars are less expensive overall than MB cars? What about the fact that a base E350 costs nearly $12,000 more than a base GS300? What about the fact that a base ML350 costs $2645 more than a base RX330? I don’t know why you even bother to bring the option issue to the table because it just proves my point. Not only are base model MB’s more expensive as a group than base model Lexus, but adding on options to both MB and Lexus only widens the gap! Look how high the gap is already between several loaded Lexus and base MB models:
 
Loaded LS430: $66,339
BASE S430: $77,970
Total Difference: $11,631
 
Loaded GS300: $46,034
BASE E350: $50,770
Total Difference: $4,736
 
Loaded GS430: $54,724
BASE E500: $58,520
Total Difference: $3,796
 
S vs LS. LS is often cross-shopped with the E, not solely with the S. You can find examples on these very boards.
 
The base E500 costs $2295 more than the base LS430. The loaded E500 costs $10,495 more than a loaded LS430. How do you explain that?
 
SL500 vs SC430. What about the CLK and SLK?
 
The base CLK500 costs $62,920 and the base SC430 costs $63,575. A loaded CLK500 costs $79,139 and a loaded SC430 costs $65,748. The $600 price difference between the base models is insignificant, but the $15,564 price difference between loaded models is significant.
 
“The greater the price, the less willing consumers are to buy any particular product.” You forgot to add the qualifier “all else being equal”. Because if there is suitably higher content to go along with a higher price, the higher priced product need not sell in lower units.
 
Just because MB model X has more “content” than Lexus model Y doesn’t mean that people will opt to pay more for the MB. Some people may not be able to afford the 16,000 price difference between a loaded CLK500 and SC430. Even though they might rather have the MB, the Lexus is a cheaper alternative.
 
Prestige is valuable, and, other things equal, if one product has more prestige it can command a higher price. PRESTIGE IS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER “FEATURE” OF A PRODUCT, such as larger engine, better styling, etc…insomuch as people are willing to pay extra for it.
 
True prestige is valuable. This is partially why MB can sell cars at a higher price than Lexus. MB makes its profits by selling fewer cars for more money. Lexus makes its profits by selling more cars for less money. Which economic strategy is better is irrelevant because we’re only talking about why Lexus sells more cars than MB.
 
Suppose there is a housing developer who is building new homes on a large tract of land. Suppose that he offers only two models, “m4” which has 4000 sq ft on 1 acre, and “m5” which has 5000 sf on 1.25 acres. You are saying “The greater the price, the less willing consumers are to buy any particular product.”…meaning that it is impossible to sell in the same quantities if one is priced higher. I submit that if m5 is priced only slightly higher than m4, say 5%, then it will not only sell more units (directly opposite what you suggest), but it will probably sell MULTIPLE TIMES as many units as m4. Similarly if the developer tries to price too much for the extra content, say 45%, then m4 will outsell m5 by multiple times. If follows that there is a some price premium between 5% and 45% where the two will sell in EQUAL numbers, DESPITE m5 being priced higher. I don’t know if that premium will be 20% or some other number, but the important point is that if a product has higher content, be it size or prestige, it can outsell even a lower-priced product.
 
I understand your analogy but I don’t believe that it accurately applies to Lexus and MB cars. MB cars don’t just cost “5%” more than Lexus cars. MB frequently costs 10k more than a Lexus and in some instances, MB costs several tens of thousands more than Lexus. The price difference isn’t so small as to invalidate the basic economic principle of the demand curve.
 
So you can’t use price as an excuse for MB’s US sales performance, because there is an offsetting factor at work: prestige.
 
Prestige is a positive factor in MB sales; however, price is an extremely negative factor for MB sales in relation to Lexus. I have already shown that Lexus vehicles, on average, cost more no matter how you calculate it. Lexus costs more base vs. base and Lexus costs more loaded vs. loaded.
 
Also, I don’t have any numbers in front of me at the moment. But I’m fairly certain that the only reason why Lexus outsells MB in the U.S. is because of the RX300/330.

#7982 of 24723 Re: xkss [merc1] by xkss

Feb 25, 2005 (12:33 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Feb 24, 2005 11:15 pm)
True, the CLS and SLK are nice. The new SLK is much better than the old one but that nose is odd.
 
I would imagine a new Bentley Arnage is built better than those older Mercedes. It uses lots of metal just like them.

#7983 of 24723 tiag_m5 by merc1

Feb 25, 2005 (12:52 am)

What I have yet to be able to understand is how prestige makes up for a person not having the extra 10-20K to get that higher priced Mercedes. Prestige is a feeling or viewpoint, money is money and you either have it or you don't in order to buy up.
 
xkss,
 
Bentleys are built very heavily but that doesn't always mean solidity. Mercedes were the most sold cars on the road and seem to remember in a few older issues of C&D in which Bentleys had hood shakes and other structural problems. I've seen similar complaints about things moving under the skin of the A8/Phaeton twins too, at least by C&D's reckoning. Weight doesn't always mean solidity. The Honda S2000 is proof of that, lightweight and solid.
 
M

#7984 of 24723 Re: [michael_mattox] by tiag_m5

Feb 25, 2005 (12:54 am)

Replying to: michael_mattox (Feb 24, 2005 9:52 pm)
My 01 Ultra has Curtin side airbags in the back and side airbags in the front.
 
You are mistaken. No Lexus vehicle offers rear side airbags. Side airbags are different than curtain side airbags in that curtains protect the head and side airbags protect the torso. The LS430 has side curtain airbags for both rows, but it doesn't have rear side airbags. Only the front seats of the LS430 have side airbags to protect the torso, whereas MB and BMW offer these bags for both the front and back seats across their entire model line. Additionally, MB offers standard seat belt ETDs and force limiters for rear seating positions across the entire model line. Lexus only offers these devices on the ES and LS.
 
I am not sure what emergency telematrics is..I have to ask is that the thing where if you get into a crash or your air bag inflates a 911 call goes out automatically with the location of your car...I have that...Plus an Emergency button that I can Push...It all works through the GPS system
 
I guess I was partially mistaken. After doing more research I see that "Lexus Link" is available only on the LS 430, SC 430, LX 470 and GX 470. (MB and BMW offer this service on every model).
 
The Price Barrier is a Testement to Lexus construction Techniques...The fact Mercedes is Overpriced is a Bad thing...for them RIGHT?
 
I'm not sure why the fact that Lexus vehicles are cheaper is "a testament to lexus construction techniques"; more like a testament to pricing strategy and fewer available options. The fact that MB costs more than Lexus is indeed a bad thing for them because they sell fewer cars.
 
WHAT IS THIS INNOVATION..That results in 56% lower fatalities?.. Whatever it is I am sure My Lexus has it....Is it Airbags, Seatbelts, Crumple zones, VSC, ABS, ?...What pray tell are you talking about?
 
I mentioned that ESC (Electronic Stability Control) was a feature that MB pioneerd in 1995, that has resulted in 56% lower single vehicle fatalities and a 41% decrease in all single vehicle crashes. Both MB and BMW had this system in 1995. It took Lexus until 1999 to incorporate this system on the LS430, and even today you still can't get it on the IS300.

#7985 of 24723 Re: tiag_m5 [merc1] by tiag_m5

Feb 25, 2005 (1:19 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Feb 25, 2005 12:52 am)
What I have yet to be able to understand is how prestige makes up for a person not having the extra 10-20K to get that higher priced Mercedes. Prestige is a feeling or viewpoint, money is money and you either have it or you don't in order to buy up.
 
Exactly. Syswei is trying to pass off a ridiculous notion that the extra "prestige" of MB alone should mean that MB sells more cars than Lexus. Unfortunately, Prestige is but a small part of the Mercedes allure. People may aspire to own a MB for the prestige, others for safety, but many can't because they cost significantly more than the imitation... err I mean Lexus alternative.
 
It doesn't matter how you cut it, no amount of prestige is going to change the fact that MB models are out of many peoples' price range.
 
Oh yes, I need to correct an obvious typo before anyone tries to use it against me. When I said "Lexus costs more base vs. base and Lexus costs more loaded vs. loaded" a few posts back, I meant to post "Lexus costs LESS base. vs. base and Lexus costs LESS loaded vs. loaded."
 
What can I say? I’m tired.

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