Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#7953 of 24726 Re: [tiag_m5]
Feb 24, 2005 (7:16 pm)
"Would you please provide a list of Toyota/Lexus innovations, in total, since 1990 that make them "at least as significant" to MB innovations?"
Oh, so we should do this by number of innovations rather than their importance to the industry? OK, let's play it your way. Just visit the USPTO site and see how many patents have been issued to Toyota vs MB since 1990. Answer: Toyota 4906, MB 1998. (The search strings I used were "AN/(mercedes or daimler or benz) and ISD/1/1/1990->2/24/2005" and "AN/toyota and ISD/1/1/1990->2/24/2005". There is a limit on message length on this board, so I can't list all 4906, but you can get details on each at
"First of all, you can't compare numbers for cars in different classes. Notice how the S class is rated as a "very large" car and the LS is a "large" car."
In fact, larger size should help not hurt MB's S injury rates...as can be seen in the data, where the average "very large" car does better than the average "large" one.
"For example, I think it would be fair to assume that the LS is more likely to be driven by older, more experienced drivers. The S on the other hand, has greater appeal to hotshot young males with money, who like to drive fast and recklessly."
Don't you think that "hotshot young males...who like to drive fast and recklessly" are more likely to end up in a BMW, SL, CL, E55, SLK, CLK, etc, rather than an S?
Your statement might be true if the average age of an S driver were 22 and the average for Lexus were 40, but I think you know better than that. You can't come up with hard numbers and neither can I. My guess is that average for both cars would be in the area of 45-58. IF it is higher for Lexus, do you realize that this would imply a greater number of people over, say 65, who may drive slower but also have slower reaction times and hence might be more accident-prone?
#7954 of 24726 Re: [tiag_m5]
Feb 24, 2005 (7:17 pm)
1. MB starts at 29,970, Lexus at 30,280. MB's product line BRACKETS Lexus' in price. If Lexus ran 30-70k and MB 50-140k you would have a valid point on price. But MB starts slightly lower.
2. "10k-30k more for BASE MB models compared to loaded Lexus models"
a. The prices given on the Lexus website are for base, not loaded, vehicles.
b. The 10-30k premium you suggest is only true for some comparisons. But even there, if you look at lease rates the gap is narrower, or even non-existent.
c. Your vehicle-by-vehicle matchups don’t make sense:
S vs LS. LS is often cross-shopped with the E, not solely with the S. You can find examples on these very boards.
SL500 vs SC430. What about the CLK and SLK?
3. “The greater the price, the less willing consumers are to buy any particular product.” You forgot to add the qualifier “all else being equal”. Because if there is suitably higher content to go along with a higher price, the higher priced product need not sell in lower units.
For instance, I don’t have numbers but it wouldn’t be surprising if diamond engagement rings outsold sapphire ones, despite being higher priced. Why? Because of the prestige and tradition that go with diamond. Higher content.
Prestige is valuable, and, other things equal, if one product has more prestige it can command a higher price. PRESTIGE IS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER “FEATURE” OF A PRODUCT, such as larger engine, better styling, etc…insomuch as people are willing to pay extra for it.
Suppose there is a housing developer who is building new homes on a large tract of land. Suppose that he offers only two models, “m4” which has 4000 sq ft on 1 acre, and “m5” which has 5000 sf on 1.25 acres. You are saying “The greater the price, the less willing consumers are to buy any particular product.”…meaning that it is impossible to sell in the same quantities if one is priced higher. I submit that if m5 is priced only slightly higher than m4, say 5%, then it will not only sell more units (directly opposite what you suggest), but it will probably sell MULTIPLE TIMES as many units as m4. Similarly if the developer tries to price too much for the extra content, say 45%, then m4 will outsell m5 by multiple times. If follows that there is a some price premium between 5% and 45% where the two will sell in EQUAL numbers, DESPITE m5 being priced higher. I don’t know if that premium will be 20% or some other number, but the important point is that if a product has higher content, be it size or prestige, it can outsell even a lower-priced product.
We can see this principle in operation in the real world, even WITHIN THE MB PRODUCT LINE. Did you know that in some years the S500 outsells the S430? How could that be, if “The greater the price, the less willing consumers are to buy any particular product”??? Answer: sufficiently higher content, including prestige. So you can’t use price as an excuse for MB’s US sales performance, because there is an offsetting factor at work: prestige.
#7955 of 24726 Re: Japan... [tiag_m5]
Feb 24, 2005 (7:23 pm)
"the funny part about that Car and Driver comparison you refer to is that the LS430 scored DEAD LAST for skid-pad, road-holding, braking distance, and other driving dynamics."
You should check your facts. C&D tested the LS with all-season tires and the S with summer tires. Somehow I think that might have had some impact on the relative "skid-pad, road-holding, braking distance, and other driving dynamics"...don't you?
Put another way, if summer tires don't have performance advantages over all-seasons, why does anyone make them or buy them?
#7956 of 24726 Re: Japan... [tiag_m5]
Feb 24, 2005 (7:30 pm)
"Just admit it, when it comes to safety MB offers more features, offers new features earlier, and offers more comprehensive crash protection than does Lexus."
As I tried to make clear earlier, I don't dispute MB's 120 years of SAFETY innovations, and I don't think others here have either, so why keep pounding away on the safety issue?
Where we differ on innovation is the relative merits of post-1990 TOTAL innovation (not just safety) by the respective companies. As I posted earlier, Toyota has 2.5 TIMES the number of issued patents.
Feb 24, 2005 (7:33 pm)
Forget which mag it was but the description never left me. They described the LS handling as "greasy". That goes way beyond tires. Do you know how a picture is worth a thousand words? Well that one word is almost worth a thousand test drives.
#7958 of 24726 Re: Tub of lard? [designman]
Feb 24, 2005 (7:40 pm)
I'll grant that outfitted with 18" summers instead of 17" all-seasons, the LS still isn't going to be a BMW in disguise.
But Mr. tiag_m5/jovialanus somehow left out part of the C&D comparo: the LS's "Acceleration is brisk: second best to 60 mph; third in the quarter, at 95 mph, as it showed taillights to three of the four Germans. Yet its fuel economy on our trip tied the Jag's at 21 mpg, topped the Audi's, BMW's, and Benz's by 2 mpg"
#7959 of 24726 Re: Japan... [tiag_m5]
Feb 24, 2005 (8:09 pm)
Phew !!! Long post.... tiag_m5, are you related to Denaliinpa, by any chance ?
"Lexus lags behind the automotive market in safety, hasn’t innovated a single safety feature, and refuses to provide basic safety features on its models?"
What a tall statement to make ? So what does these things you state so emphatically translate to ? Poorer product ? Less safe product ? What ?
#7960 of 24726 Re: Proof Would Be Nice [merc1]
Feb 24, 2005 (8:29 pm)
Aren't you the one who talks about Lexus stealing all those Mercedes Innovations...
I simply agreed with you...
The prof that lexus makes them better is the Lexus Dependability compared to Mercedes..Lexus has most of the same innovations..just put them in a couple of years after Mercedes...Yet ours work flawlessly...and You wish yours did.
Feb 24, 2005 (8:52 pm)
My 01 Ultra has Curtin side airbags in the back and side airbags in the front.
Since this is the High end Luxury Board I will stick to responding to The LS.
I am not sure what emergency telematrics is..I have to ask is that the thing where if you get into a crash or your air bag inflates a 911 call goes out automatically with the location of your car...I have that...Plus an Emergency button that I can Push...It all works through the GPS system
So both Lexus and Mercedes don't offer Battery disconnect on fuel shot off...I don't know if my Lexus does or not and I am not going to wade through Hundreds of pages of Manual to try and find out.
The Price Barrier is a Testement to Lexus construction Techniques...The fact Mercedes is Overpriced is a Bad thing...for them RIGHT?
WHAT IS THIS INNOVATION..That results in 56% lower fatalities?.. Whatever it is I am sure My Lexus has it....Is it Airbags, Seatbelts, Crumple zones, VSC, ABS, ?...What pray tell are you talking about?