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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

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What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 796 of 2473

#7944 of 24723 Re: [syswei] by tiag_m5

Feb 24, 2005 (4:11 pm)

Replying to: syswei (Feb 24, 2005 9:04 am)
If you look at my original post, I never claimed that Lexus has out-innovated MB specifically in SAFETY since 1990. I did claim that, since 1990, Toyota/Lexus innovations IN TOTAL are at least as significant to the industry as MB innovations.
 
Really? Would you please provide a list of Toyota/Lexus innovations, in total, since 1990 that make them "at least as significant" to MB innovations?
 
For all of MB’s 120 years of safety innovations, does the S-class actually end up safer than the 15-year-young LS? Actually, not according to real-world data. Check the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety website...you’ll find that the LS has 16% LESS personal injury losses than the S (46 vs 55 based on 100 equaling average injury losses…both are very safe, but the LS is clearly SAFER).
 
Wow, this is probably the most inaccurate and misleading post I have read in a long time. First of all, you can't compare numbers for cars in different classes. Notice how the S class is rated as a "very large" car and the LS is a "large" car. Secondly, the injury loss rate is of little to no value when determining the overall safety of a car, ESPECIALLY when the numbers are so close as is this case.
 
Driver demographics, location demographics and a certain degree of randomness all affect these numbers. For example, I think it would be fair to assume that the LS is more likely to be driven by older, more experienced drivers. The S on the other hand, has greater appeal to hotshot young males with money, who like to drive fast and recklessly. Who would you expect to drive into a tree more often and with greater force?
 
And you still haven't been able to explain away the following, since Lexus is such a safety conscious brand and all:
 
-Lexus doesn't offer rear side airbags on ANY of its vehicles. (Standard across MB line)
-Lexus doesn't offer rollover protection on its SC430 convertible. (Standard on the SL since 1989)
-Lexus doesn't offer rear head airbags on the IS or GS. (Standard across entire MB line)
-Lexus doesn't offer head protection airbags on its SC430 convertible. (SL does)
-Lexus doesn't offer standard ESC on its IS300 (Standard across entire MB line since 1999).
-Lexus doesn't off rear seatbelt ETDs or load limiters, except on the LS and ES. (Standard across entire MB line).
-Lexus doesn't offer emergency telematics on any vehicle. (Available across entire MB)
-Lexus doesn't offer battery disconnect/fuel shutoff. (Standard across entire BMW line).
 
These are just a few of the safety features that Lexus lacks in comparison to MB vehicles. Not to mention the fact that the safety features that Lexus does have, were all introduced several years after MB.
 
I have to disagree here. You seem to take fatalities as the measure of a carmaker’s worth to the world. What about fatalities due to pollution? Do you recognize that hybrid power trains, once more widely adopted (including by the Germans, once they “copy” the technology), will save many lives due to fuel savings and hence lower emissions?
 
Well, I guess if a 56% reduction in single vehicle fatalities due ONE of Mercedes' countless innovations isn't impressive to you, I don't know what would be. I can't discredit Toyota/Lexus for their work with hybrid technology, but this technology is still in its infancy and isn’t even an economically sound alternative to regular fuel engines. I’m not sure that hybrid technology really qualifies as a “safety feature” more like an environmental feature. When the IIHS issues a report that hybrid technology accounts for a 56% reduction in fatalities, let me know.
 
MB's U.S. product line actually starts LOWER in price than does Lexus'. If you eliminate all of MB's models at price points higher than Lexus' highest price point, Lexus still outsells MB in the U.S., only by a wider margin. MB product is available in the entire Lexus price range, and then some. Why can't MB outsell Lexus if price is the barrier?
 
I’m not sure where you got your numbers from, but all I had to do was visit the Lexus and MB website to disprove this theory. Here are the following BASE prices for competing Lexus and MB cars:
 
S430: $77,970
LS430: $56,225
 
SL500: $92,020
SC430: $63,575
 
E350: $50,770
GS300: $38,875
 
ML350: $38,670
RX330: $36,025
 
C230: $29,970
IS300: $30,280
 
With the exception of the IS, every Lexus vehicle is significantly less expensive than base Mercedes vehicles with no options. As soon as you upgrade the engine or add some options, the price difference soars exponentially. So essentially, yes there is a price barrier… a HUGE price barrier.
 
Some value needs to be accorded MB's higher prestige. If a Timex watch were physically IDENTICAL to a Rolex, except for the brand name, don't you think Rolex could still price somewhat higher, but sell the same number of units as the physically same but lower-prestige Timex?
 
No I don’t. First of all, Timex watches and Rolex watches aren’t identical, much the same as MB and Lexus aren’t identical. Second of all, even if Rolex did price its watches “somewhat” higher than a Timex, it still wouldn’t sell as many as the lower priced Timex. The greater the price, the less willing consumers are to buy any particular product, as is the case for watches or cars. I’ve already shown you that MB vehicles are much more expensive than Lexus, so this effect is only magnified.
 
Since MB has more "content" in the form of prestige, it follows that consumers should be willing to pay a little more but still buy it in the same numbers as Lexus. But they don't.
 
Again, consumers aren’t paying “a little more” they are paying on the order of 10k-30k more for BASE MB models compared to loaded Lexus models. Adding options and engines to MB models only exacerbates this difference.

#7945 of 24723 Hmm... by pat

Feb 24, 2005 (4:17 pm)

I think this "innovation" argument is one of the more pointless and certainly one of the tiredest that goes on here.
 
For the most part ... the *most* part ... most of you agree that the Germans have come up with more innovations and Toyota/Lexus has refined (copied, whatever) those innovations to be more reliable than the Germans presented in the first place. I don't see a general disagreement about that and am not sure that it makes any sense for anyone to be "keeping score" about who did what first. Why does anyone care?
 
And I sure don't see the point of doing all the stretching that some of you do to continue to argue about some aspect or another of this concept.
 
It's all good, don't you think? Every time some new innovation comes along from someone, it's a step forward even if it involves tripping over a log every now and then. Every time someone else figures out how to get rid of the log, that's another step forward.
 
Isn't that a good thing all around?

#7946 of 24723 Re: [michael_mattox] by tiag_m5

Feb 24, 2005 (4:38 pm)

Replying to: michael_mattox (Feb 24, 2005 9:58 am)
It is true..Lexus takes innovations from Mercedes and Volvo and others...They work with them to make them better and more reliable BEFORE they put them in their car....
 
Oh really? I'm not sure I have ever seen a study that suggests that Lexus ESC is better or more reliable than Mercedes ESC, or that Lexus ABS is better than Mercedes ABS. What I do know, is that Lexus offers fewer safety features than MB and that MB builds its cars to withstand not only crash tests, but also the infinite number of untested, realworld accidents. MB even has its own accident investigation team (so does Volvo) that analyzes real world accidents to make their cars safer.
 
What is the value of a safety feature if you don't know for certain that it will work when you need it...Mercedes rushes their innovations into production, Lexus perfects them first...I like the Lexus approach..You will say you like the Mercedes approach...Different strokes.
 
So how did Lexus perfect the ESC system that MB introduced 4 years before Lexus? How did Lexus perfect the side airbag that Volvo introduced 3 years before Lexus? How did Lexus perfect the head protection airbag system that BMW introduced 2 years before Lexus? Lucky for me, BMW's pioneering head protection system didn't have any problems working properly when my '98 528i was broadsided by a drunk in a speeding mustang.
 
In the end, Lexus takes a reactive approach to safety whereas MB/Volvo/BMW takes a proactive approach. If Lexus thinks its sales will dip because MB model X has a safety feature that Lexus model Y doesn't, it may or may not decide to introduce said feature several years later. If MB sees an opportunity to enhance the safety of its vehicles, and ultimately all vehicles, it will. This has been proved time and time again going back to the early 20th century.

#7947 of 24723 Re: Japan... [sv7887] by tiag_m5

Feb 24, 2005 (4:49 pm)

Replying to: sv7887 (Feb 24, 2005 7:18 am)
Offer some proof in the form of percent fatalities per crash..Last time I checked the LS430 gets the same crash ratings as any other Lux car. If the LS430 were less safe you can bet the press would jump all over it.
 
Unfortunately, no such statistics exist. However, knowing that MB is always on the forefront of safety gives me more reason to believe that an MB vehicle will protect me in a real world crash than a slacker like Lexus with a non-existent reputation for safety. Pretend you had no knowledge of either the Lexus or MB badge, and only knew about company history. Would you feel safer in the sedan from company A, who not only has more safety features, but has introduced cutting edge safety advancements for over a century, or the sedan from company B, who has fewer safety features, hasn't introduced any features, and is consistently several years behind in adopting new technology? ... Yeah that's what I thought.
 
Get over it already. Do you think anyone cares who built it first?? This is a real desperate attempt to slam Lexus..
 
Well considering the fact that how much interest a company shows in autosafety is probably a good indication of how safe it engineers its cars, yes, I think everyone should care. You may think this is a desperate attempt, I would call it a revelation of truth, the truth that Lexus tries to hide.
 
Lexus prices for less, because their COSTS are less. No one can deny the superiority of the TPS system. It's not Lexus' fault that the German marques can't match their efficiency. As for who is the better car, read the Car mags. I always see the LS430 either first or in the top three..Not bad for an "unsafe" car...
 
The inside economics of Lexus pricing doesn't matter in the least. The only thing that matters is the bottom line. People can buy Lexus for less money than they can buy Mercedes for, thus more Lexus is sold. This is a simple principle of economics.

#7948 of 24723 Re: Japan... [tiag_m5] by sv7887

Feb 24, 2005 (5:52 pm)

Replying to: tiag_m5 (Feb 24, 2005 4:49 pm)
More nonsense from the German fans in here..
 
First of all if you've look at the demographics of High end Lux car buyers, you'll see we're Middle Executives in our late 40's-50's earning in excess of 175K per year...The young hotshot probably represents the minority buyer..I don't think MB specially designs their cars for juvenile deliquents who don't know how to drive. That's got to be one of the most absurd things I've heard.
 
NO prestige does not sell cars solely. If that were the case Toyota wouldn't be the most profitable car company in the world, Rolls Royce would be. I don't know what planet you all live on, but the board of any company demands profits bottom line. I think DCX would trade some of that prestige for $12Billion in Toyota Revenues..
 
As for the safety argument...You have NO real world data to back up your claims..Number patents is great, but the Lexus hasn't lost a SINGLE crash test rating to the Germans..It always earns top marks in any crash test I've read.
 
Lexus isn't hiding anything, in fact they're laughing all the way to the bank.. You offer opinions, I offer facts. I've taken a nasty 35 MPH side impact in my LS400 and the car barely moved. I heard a faint thump..That's about it..
 
If you did any research you'll see that you can't even get a LS430 base model anywhere. The typical car is the $62,700 model. The S430 I was thinking of buying was $78K. The LS beat the S430 in all the last few Car and Driver and Road and Track comparisons.
 
We've been through this..Lexus sells more cars at a higher price point than Mercedes does. Go read the last few pages of posts..Here's a basic lesson in economics: If a producer sells a product for 15K more than their competitor how come they make less money on the same car than their competitor? Why is it that Lexus makes more money on each LS430 than Mercedes does on their S430? Here's another another fact from Econ 1a: The most efficient Producer is the most profitable producer....Gee, I think we know who wins the profit game.
 
Following your logic, I shouldn't feel safer in an Airbus A340-600 than a 747 because they a) haven't been in the business long, b) Haven't introduced as many safety features as Boeing, c) They price it lower than the 747...Yet Airbus is wiping Boeing's nose in the dirt in the marketplace..Why? Basic economics. To this day, no one has proved that the Airbus is not as safe as the 747...The same logic applies to Lexus. I use this analogy because I've worked in Aircraft Related industries for over 30 yrs and hear the same sort of nonsense all the time..Boeing's attitude towards Airbus was strikingly similar to what MB was towards Lexus..Who's laughing now?
 
SV
 
You can argue this snob attitude all you want, but profits are the telling story. It's like I tell my kids, no one cares how smart you think you are, it's the grades that count..The attitude on this board is of the English style Country Club thumbing their noses at the young upstart.

#7949 of 24723 Re: Japan... [sv7887] by oac

Feb 24, 2005 (6:05 pm)

Replying to: sv7887 (Feb 24, 2005 5:52 pm)
Great points on Economics 101. Efficiency v Productivity. Ugh.... who would have thunked that ?

#7950 of 24723 Re: Japan... [sv7887] by tiag_m5

Feb 24, 2005 (7:46 pm)

Replying to: sv7887 (Feb 24, 2005 5:52 pm)
First of all if you've look at the demographics of High end Lux car buyers, you'll see we're Middle Executives in our late 40's-50's earning in excess of 175K per year...The young hotshot probably represents the minority buyer..I don't think MB specially designs their cars for juvenile deliquents who don't know how to drive. That's got to be one of the most absurd things I've heard.
 
Well again, your point regarding the IIHS injury claim data is completely moot anyway because the cars are in different classes of measurement. But I’ll go ahead and humor your false assumption. You said yourself that MB has more prestige than Lexus. Who is going to be more concerned with prestige, a 70yr old grandmother or a 28yr .com yuppie? The fact of the matter is, no matter how much of a minority this type of buyer represents, it still influences the numbers.
 
NO prestige does not sell cars solely. If that were the case Toyota wouldn't be the most profitable car company in the world, Rolls Royce would be. I don't know what planet you all live on, but the board of any company demands profits bottom line. I think DCX would trade some of that prestige for $12Billion in Toyota Revenues.
 
I never said it did. What are you talking about?
  
As for the safety argument...You have NO real world data to back up your claims..Number patents is great, but the Lexus hasn't lost a SINGLE crash test rating to the Germans..It always earns top marks in any crash test I've read.
 
Yeah except for the following where Lexus lost to the Germans:
 
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/96031.htm
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/99006.htm
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98022.htm
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98022.htm
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0129.htm
 
Oh and lets not forget the countless Toyota vehicles that have performed poorly.
 
Lexus isn't hiding anything, in fact they're laughing all the way to the bank.. You offer opinions, I offer facts. I've taken a nasty 35 MPH side impact in my LS400 and the car barely moved. I heard a faint thump..That's about it.
 
You have offered absolutely no facts, mostly just side stepping and rambling on about profit margins. On the other-hand I have provided valid points which you have been unable to disprove. You want to talk facts? What about the fact that Lexus refuses to offer the most basic side impact airbag for rear seat passengers on its flagship sedan? What about the fact that it’s $65k SC430 luxury convertible doesn’t offer the rollover protection system that’s been available on the SL since 1989? What about the fact that Lexus is always LAST to market with new safety features relative to the European competition? What about the fact that Lexus is perhaps the least safety conscious high end brand as shown by their inability to innovate? What about those facts?
  
If you did any research you'll see that you can't even get a LS430 base model anywhere. The typical car is the $62,700 model. The S430 I was thinking of buying was $78K. The LS beat the S430 in all the last few Car and Driver and Road and Track comparisons.
 
Nor can you get a base S430 anywhere. Even if this were true, the loaded LS430 still costs less than the base S430… thank you for proving my point Oh and the funny part about that Car and Driver comparison you refer to is that the LS430 scored DEAD LAST for skid-pad, road-holding, braking distance, and other driving dynamics. It only won because it was the best value… but don’t assume best value means best overall.
  
We've been through this..Lexus sells more cars at a higher price point than Mercedes does. Go read the last few pages of posts.
BUZZZZZ. Wrong, every Lexus vehicle (except the IS300) sells for a significantly lower price point than comparable Mercedes vehicles, as I already proved. Looks like you need to do some more research.
 
Here's a basic lesson in economics: If a producer sells a product for 15K more than their competitor how come they make less money on the same car than their competitor? Why is it that Lexus makes more money on each LS430 than Mercedes does on their S430? Here's another another fact from Econ 1a: The most efficient Producer is the most profitable producer....Gee, I think we know who wins the profit game.
 
And profit margins matter why? You aren’t very good at trying to twist the facts. I never said MB made more money that Lexus and I could care less if they did. All I said, and proved to you, was that Lexus sells vehicles for less money than Mercedes and thus sells more vehicles.
  
Following your logic, I shouldn't feel safer in an Airbus A340-600 than a 747 because they a) haven't been in the business long, b) Haven't introduced as many safety features as Boeing, c) They price it lower than the 747...Yet Airbus is wiping Boeing's nose in the dirt in the marketplace..Why? Basic economics. To this day, no one has proved that the Airbus is not as safe as the 747...The same logic applies to Lexus. I use this analogy because I've worked in Aircraft Related industries for over 30 yrs and hear the same sort of nonsense all the time..Boeing's attitude towards Airbus was strikingly similar to what MB was towards Lexus..Who's laughing now?
 
Again, you resort to vague logic and economic theory to attempt to prove your point. What does the “Airbus wiping Boeing’s nose in the dirt in the marketplace” have to do with the safety of each respective aircraft? And for what its worth, aircraft safety designs are inherently similar, so the difference between an Airbus and a Boeing safety wise isn’t measurable by features or test results.
  
Just admit it, when it comes to safety MB offers more features, offers new features earlier, and offers more comprehensive crash protection than does Lexus. I can admit that Lexus build a more reliable car, and I can also admit that Toyota/Lexus is on the forefront of hybrid tech. I can admit both of these things because they are obvious. The question is, how come Lexus fanboys can’t admit when their precious Lexus lags behind the automotive market in safety, hasn’t innovated a single safety feature, and refuses to provide basic safety features on its models?

#7951 of 24723 Re: Japan... [tiag_m5] by ljflx

Feb 24, 2005 (8:06 pm)

Replying to: tiag_m5 (Feb 24, 2005 7:46 pm)
Ok - you win. Only problem is MB comes in 31st out of 32 brands in Germany in relaibility and can't even get a poor rating in CR's figures. They get full black circle everytime on every car. Translation - abysmal. I'll take a very safe car and no.1 reliability rating over your sick statistics any day of the week.
 
Your price issue is absurd. Lexus allows you to opt for the things MB forces down your throat. Opt for them all and you're in the low 70's. Try to keep price affordable and you are high 50's. No LS is built at the MSRP without any options so throwing up a mid 50's price is pure BS. But I thought choice was good not bad. I guess when it comes to options and pricing its bad but when it comes to derivatives of cars its great.
 
By the way with MB's horrendous integration of electronics I hope all the safety iems work when someone needs them.

#7952 of 24723 Re: [tiag_m5] by syswei

Feb 24, 2005 (8:15 pm)

Replying to: tiag_m5 (Feb 24, 2005 4:11 pm)
BTW, did you change your moniker to tiag_m5 today to distance yourself from the incorrect claim that airbags were an MB innovation?

#7953 of 24723 Re: [tiag_m5] by syswei

Feb 24, 2005 (8:16 pm)

Replying to: syswei (Feb 24, 2005 8:15 pm)
"Would you please provide a list of Toyota/Lexus innovations, in total, since 1990 that make them "at least as significant" to MB innovations?"
 
Oh, so we should do this by number of innovations rather than their importance to the industry? OK, let's play it your way. Just visit the USPTO site and see how many patents have been issued to Toyota vs MB since 1990. Answer: Toyota 4906, MB 1998. (The search strings I used were "AN/(mercedes or daimler or benz) and ISD/1/1/1990->2/24/2005" and "AN/toyota and ISD/1/1/1990->2/24/2005". There is a limit on message length on this board, so I can't list all 4906, but you can get details on each at
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-adv.htm
 
"First of all, you can't compare numbers for cars in different classes. Notice how the S class is rated as a "very large" car and the LS is a "large" car."
 
In fact, larger size should help not hurt MB's S injury rates...as can be seen in the data, where the average "very large" car does better than the average "large" one.
 
"For example, I think it would be fair to assume that the LS is more likely to be driven by older, more experienced drivers. The S on the other hand, has greater appeal to hotshot young males with money, who like to drive fast and recklessly."
 
Don't you think that "hotshot young males...who like to drive fast and recklessly" are more likely to end up in a BMW, SL, CL, E55, SLK, CLK, etc, rather than an S?
 
Your statement might be true if the average age of an S driver were 22 and the average for Lexus were 40, but I think you know better than that. You can't come up with hard numbers and neither can I. My guess is that average for both cars would be in the area of 45-58. IF it is higher for Lexus, do you realize that this would imply a greater number of people over, say 65, who may drive slower but also have slower reaction times and hence might be more accident-prone?

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