Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#7824 of 24723 Re: More debates.. [sv7887]
Feb 20, 2005 (10:58 pm)
"Merc, I've seen the A-Class in person here in London..It just looks like a tin can to me..What are they accomplishing by going so down market? Isn't this what they bought Chrysler for? From a business perspective it would make more sense to concentrate on the Neon to penetrate this segment rather than dilute the MB brand name. Mercedes should concentrate on their E and above models and delegate the rest to Chrysler..I just think Chrysler has more experience building the cheaper cars, while MB has the decided advantage in the upmarket products."
Well in Europe they Chrylser part won't work and the A-Class isn't coming here anyway. They've had the A-Class since 1997, before the merger.
I don't think they'll bring a S320CDI here because it will be a V6 model and MB and all the rest of the Euro crowd has given up on a 6-cylinder versions of their top-line cars because they wouldn't be too competitive at the prices they'd have to charge for them. The S400CDI is a V6 with 260hp in the current S-Class, but for new S-Class the engine is to be revamped to develop 314hp according to most MB spy sites.
You can forget a stripped MB, BMW or Lexus in the U.S. Americans definition of a "luxury" car won't allow it.
#7825 of 24723 Re: oac [brightness04]
Feb 20, 2005 (11:10 pm)
"The same can be said of Chevy, Ford and Dodge, with their Corvette, 550hp GT and Viper."
This couldn't be more wrong. Chevy, Ford and Dodge don't make nearly as many variants of their cars from no hp to 500hp. Secondly where can I get a Corvette, Viper or GT with no hp in a "pedestrian" version. These cars are specialty models for their repsective makers and don't share squat with Cobalts, Neons and Mustangs that they sell beside. An E-Class is just that wheter it is a E240 or a E55 AMG.
Pure nonesense to even suggest the relationship is the same.
"Your assessment is probably incorrect. Lexus sells around 3300 LS430 and LX470 alone each month; add almost all of the 2800 or so GX470 which are usually priced over $50k when popular options are added; the a small per centage of fully loaded RX330's, which has a huge base number to work with, like 9-10k units, even if only 10% of them are fully loaded, that's another 1k units. Add another 700-1k units for SC430. We have what, 7-8k Lexus units sold in the US being over $50k, estimated very conservatively, before even counting any GS model at all. MB only sells 12-13k cars in the US a month. There is simply no way more than half of them are over $50k. MB has a lot of models, but precious little unit sales among its high end models. That also explains why MB quality has gone down the toilet: what little engineering budget there is has to be spread thin.
Again, prove me otherwise. On a yearly basis who sells more cars over 50K was the poster's question. I said Lexus, now if you think otherwise find Lexus' year end press release and add up all the cars they sell for over 50K. The RX330 isn't a 50K unless you just want to give Lexus some extra money, meaning it has to struggle to get there in MSRP, if possible and it certainly doesn't sell on average for that price.
"MB only sells 12-13k cars in the US a month."
You are kidding me right? 13K cars a month would be 156K units a year, not the 221K that they sold last year of the 218 in 2003 or the 210K in 2002. Wrong and grossly incorrect sales theories, look up the numbers. In Jan 2005 they sold the amount you're talking about due coming down off Dec 2004 in which they sold over 26K units for the month.
Present the sales numbers for the SL, CL, S, G, V8 E-Class/CLK models and compare them to the Lexus LS, GS430, LX470, SC430 and tell me who sells more at 50K or above. You won't be able to spin the results in Lexus' favor. The RX330 isn't a 50K vehicle.
#7826 of 24723 Re: oac [oac]
Feb 20, 2005 (11:19 pm)
I'll ask you just like I asked brightness, show the numbers. This stuff about Mercedes only selling 12-13K cars a month in the U.S is based on one month in 2005, Jan. Do you guys research any of this sales stuff before posting. This is simple math, MB can't sell 12-13K units a month and sell 210K+ units each year since 2002. Look up the numbers!
"What MB has are niche cars (S600/SL/CLS/AMGs) not necessarily luxury cars, since these sell in so low numbers. The mainstream luxury car seller, at least in the US, is Lexus. The numbers bear it out, and numbers don't lie, or do they ?
That is the most deperate spin I have ever read. You mean to tell me that when Lexus does this 125K sports car and a 100K hybrid version of the next LS it won't be a luxury car because they won't sell in large numbers? Now volume makes a luxury car, yet they're supposed to be exclusive items? Now we have a "mainstream" luxury seller because Lexus doesn't compete in the higher price brackets where Mercedes and BMW rule? This absolutely makes no sense at all.
Why not break out which brand sells more beige, black or silver cars to determine which is the truly luxury seller? I mean this would be just about as logical as breaking out who is the "mainstream" seller. Who sells more cars with hi-performance tires or who sells more cars with 18 inch wheels or 19 inchers.
#7827 of 24723 Precious Metal
Feb 20, 2005 (11:40 pm)
The claim was made about 150 posts ago that the A8 was "less safe" than the LS430 because of its aluminum make up.
For all the fact finders present I still see nothing about the safety of the A8 or the LS430 one way or another, and certainly nothing about the A8 being "less safe" than the LS430.
Yet there have been countless theories about metals and how they bend, react to heat and everything else, but nothing that proves the original claim. As usual there are those asking for anyone taking the side of the A8 prove the original poster wrong, yet the folks defending the A8 didn't make such a ridiculous claim about or any claims about the LS430's safety, yet A8 supporters are supposed to do all the "proving" when origanal claim was made by a LS430 supporter? The claim was made against the A8 so there is where the burden proof lies.
Going once, going twice.......proof of the A8 being less safe than LS430 because it has aluminum sheetmetal and a aluminun structure.
That there is no such data is the reason why no crash test scores or anything else pertaining to or backing this claim has been shown.
Feb 20, 2005 (11:52 pm)
I meant to say in that earlier post that the S400CDI is a V8, not a V6.
#7829 of 24723 Re: Precious Metal [merc1]
Feb 21, 2005 (5:07 am)
good morning merc1,
i did quite a bit of searching about this non- sense of which automobile is safer. the previous A8 was the only luxury sedan to receive 5 stars for the driver and passenger. the current version has yet to be tested.
much was made about the ignition temperature of the aluminum skin. one poster on another site made the point that there are plenty of items to burn well before the aluminum would on an A8. sounds reasonable to me.
also when it comes to safety....all of the active and passive safety systems on the A8 make it at the very least equal to any other automobile in this class.
in your post about sales numbers..... Lexus's numbers sink even lower if you remove the re badged Land Cruiser. like i mentioned many many posts ago...the LS, GS, IS, and SC are the
only true Lexus specific designs. these are the numbers that should be counted. and i know this pisses a lot of people off. my point is not to knock the quality of the cars they design and sell but to merely compare it to the strength and breadth of the MB's lineup. at this point in time there is no comparison between the two brands in what they offer the high end buying customer.
#7830 of 24723 Re: Lexus in Europe [pablo_l]
Feb 21, 2005 (5:18 am)
pablo 1...the link is not working.
i tried to pull up an article on businessweek but
you have to be a member to do so. maybe you could copy/paste it.
#7831 of 24723 denaliinpa
Feb 21, 2005 (7:37 am)
Yeah I'm trying to grasp the point of the A8L being less safe than a steel bodied car too, but yet there is no evidence to support this. If this were truly the case then the Jaguar XJ and Acura NSX would be "less safe" also, using this theory about aluminum.
The only way for anyone to know which is safer is to see how the VW Phaeton does versus the A8 in crash testing, of which neither has been tested yet. You know since they are the same car and all to everyone.
#7832 of 24723 Build Construction
Feb 21, 2005 (7:42 am)
I doubt that Aluminum would make a difference (in a negative way) in the crash results. Keep in mind Aluminum is used on aircraft regularly. Only recently have they moved to lighter composities.
On the radio front: I read the Edmunds Top 10 ranking of the sound systems. All except MB (surprising) were on it. I swear that the Mark Levinson on my new LS is better than my '02..The old car's system seemed muffled. The Pioneer in my LS400 was better at reproducing instrumental music..But now you can tell the difference.
Anyone listen to the Alpine unit in the Jaguar?
#7833 of 24723 Re: Lexus in Europe [denaliinpa]
Feb 21, 2005 (9:10 am)
>>i tried to pull up an article on businessweek but you have to be a member to do so. maybe you could copy/paste it.
NO NO NO NO NO NO!!
That would violate every copyright law in the book!!!
The problem with the link is that something has lately screwed up the way they get posted. To make that link work, you have to copy it all the way through the ".htm" that follows the highlighted part, paste it into the address bar, remove the "-" and the space that is between the "-" and the ".htm". Yeah, PITA.
I have reported this issue, but so far I have no feedback on what is the deal.
Meanwhile let me see if I can make it work. Try clicking here.