Edmunds.com | Inside Line | Auto Observer Your Account | Help | Directory
You are here:
![[F]](http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/townhall/webxicons/site.gif){kind=small}
Forums
Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
|
|
|---|---|
|
Replying to: denaliinpa (Feb 19, 2005 6:58 am) Or trying to make up for inadequate engineering. the A8 is obviously one of the most advanced automobile designs in the world. what a joke!! The joke is on you. Obviously, each one of LS, 7, S and A8 is "one of the most advanced automobile designs in th world." Dah! You'd think after spending that much money it ought to be. Biased or not, the steel side certainly has the material expertise and have a long list of disadvantages for aluminum. As far as I can tell, the only counter-argument the aluminum side expert witness can provide is weight savings, which in the case of A8 is quite removed from the spirit of the vehicle. More to the point, A8 only makes up 3% of Audi sales. How can you argue that differentiates Audi from VW? "Nonsens and spin"? |
|
|
|
|
http://www.autoaluminum.org/sp1.htm here is a link to an article from Reuters about aluminum in automobiles. it is on a biased site that promotes aluminum but the article is interesting. there is also a sub article that discusses the previous generation A8....how it received 5 stars in crash tests. for any person to believe that an ALL ALUMINUM A8 is not different than a an ALL STEEL Phaeton...."talking to you is like a martian trying to have a discussion with a fungo"{Bull Durham). many auto manufacturers are using aluminum today to save weight in their vehicles. the current E class has an aluminum hood, trunk and i believe front fenders. only the Audi has taken it to the advanced technical level of a completely all aluminum vehicle. whether you like Audi or not what they accomplished is very advanced.
|
|
|
Hi All, I don't see the benefits of aluminum unless the car weighs significantly less..The point about the Audi is that even with AWD, it shouldn't weigh more..Even Jaguar's offering weighs less than it's counterpart...It's comparable to Boeing's composite 787 jetliner weighing more than the aluminum 767 it is replacing. Another problem with aluminum is the hassle in getting the thing repaired..It might make a great marketing tool, but I wouldn't want the hassle..I'll stick to steel until Mercedes or Lexus goes that way. What I find interesting is that the world leader, Mercedes, in safety hasn't adopted this technology. I don't feel unsafe in my LS430 (Especially after taking quite a hit in my LS400), but I feel MB is first to the market with alot of safety innovations..One of the things I was most impressed with in the S Class was it's obvious sturdiness. I wouldn't be too worried about surviving a crash in that car. The Mercedes salesman mentioned something about the frame being made from one metal block rather than being welded like other cars...Is there any real significance to that? As for Jaguar..The latest XJ is a nice car, but the Jaguar purists are not happy due to it's design..Ford attempts at preserving the look haven't worked thus far..The concepts for the new XK look good..Only time will tell... SV |
|
|
I keep reading all these stories about How bad Mercedes-Benz is doing and yet they only changed one guy at the top. This Cordes guy. He seems pretty sharp and apparently has done a good job before. Yet in the US, it seems they have weak management who have devasted the product and taken away the scheduled maintenance and are losing money and it seems really don't understand the US market. Why not make a change here also? When Chrysler neeeded help they brought in Zietche and Eberhardt who both knew the US Market, at Mercedes in the US, they took a company doing very well going in the right direction and brought in what has turned out to be sub-par manangement, who had never been in the US before and they have now managed to run in it into the ground and our stock will take the hit. Maybe Kirkorian should run it. |
|
|
Replying to: michael_mattox (Feb 17, 2005 8:27 pm) "Lexus LS430 290 HP...0-60... 5.9 SEC...and it gets much better gas milage." Why don't you tell the whole truth? Where does the A8 reach its peak HP? at 6500rpm! Where does the LS reach its peak HP? at 5600rpm! Torque? about the same: 317 A8 vs. 320 LS Is (18/25 LS vs. 18/24 A8) that so much better??? The Audi weighs about 300 lb. more (8%) Now, the discussion between alu space frame and conventional steel is very interesting. I have seen the difference between the two in the production. I can tell you that much: the alloy spaceframe is considerably harder to manufacture. It takes a lot more people to put together a spaceframe than a convantional frame, which is manufactured mostly by robots. Audi has a considerable experience in alu frames, since they are the first who did that in large scale production, as far as I know. The new Rolls-Royce is an aluminum space frame, for example. |
|
|
|
|
Replying to: rl81 (Feb 19, 2005 9:33 am) I am not a real knowledge Auto guy...Don't know how to fix them...or build them..Only know how to buy them...Question.. If the Lexus has Almost 16% Less HP...and slightly more toque..AND IS MUCH FASTER 0-60 What is the relavance of the LS reaching Peak HP at a lower RPM...ISN'T THAT A GOOD THING.
|
|
|
Hi All, Does a welded body have any disadvantage over the uniframe design a la Mercedes? If you were going to get into an accident, is there anything conclusive on the merits of either design? SV
|
|
|
|
|
hey guys, when it comes to which automobile is quicker the A8 or the LS430....the LS is quicker. i have yet to see a 0-60 time for the short wheel base version of the A8. the 6.3 is usually what i see quoted for the long wheelbase. keep in mind that the A8 in either long or short wheelbase is AWD and I'm sure that will affect the quickness of the vehicle. as for which automobile is safer i am sure they are both equally safe in accidents regardless of the steel vs aluminum nonsense that has been filling this thread. having said that Audi should be commended for manufacturing a unique vehicle.
|
|
|
Replying to: michael_mattox (Feb 19, 2005 10:27 am) the two cars/ engines have totally different characters. LS: comfortable and refined A8: sporty and dynamic Compare it to the M5/M6 engine: V10, 5liters, 507 HP  7750rpm, 383 ft-lbs6100rpm The A8 short and long wheelbase are supposed to be the same from 0-60 (6.3s), based on the audiusa website. Either that is a little too optimistic for the long wheelbase or too slow for the short wheelbase. Alright, after reviewing the German Audi website, I found out that the A8 SWB goes from 1-100kph in 6.3s and the LWB takes 6.4s. Because 0-100kph equals 0-62mph, in order to be fair, you have to take off 0.1 or 0.2 seconds off to get the 'real' 0-60 time. Also, don't forget that the A8 is AWD which will slow it down in pure acceleration compared to the LS. However AWD gives you better traction at the limit. What does that mean? If you ask me? NOTHING. How many luxury car owners in here take their car regularly on the track? How many have driven their LS or whatever on a track? There is nothing to prove it, my opinion is that the A8 will be faster driven at the limit. And I don't mean pure acceleration. Speed in curves is more important on a track. Really people, the way most people drive these cars, they only get the cars to 60-70% of their potential. It's more about knowing that you could if you wanted.
|
|
|
Replying to: sv7887 (Feb 19, 2005 10:46 am) The uniframe design on the other hand is more like a skeleton. Conceptually it should be stiffer. What does this mean in an accident? Well it depends, the key here is that in an accident you have to bend as much metal as possible to take out the energy of the crash without hurting the people that are inside. Weight is also another consideration because the heavier car will be less damaged in an accident. Safety is a very hard thing to do right because it's not JUST that they try to make to frame as hard as they can. You want to absorb most of the energy in the front where the engine is (in a frontal crash). Conclusion: safety depends more on how good of a job the engineers have done rather than how stiff the frame is. I personally don't believe that there are cosiderable differences between any serious lux car. Don't forget, the stiffer the frame the sportier, therefore I assume that Lexus would be more on the soft side since they are more on comfort than sport. |
|
New? Join Now!
Forum Tools
Search Forums
Browse by Vehicle
2011 Audi A8
2010 BMW 7 Series
2008 Jaguar XJ-Series
2010 Lexus LS 460
2010 Mercedes-Benz S-Class
2006 Volkswagen Phaeton
2009 Maserati Quattroporte
2010 Mercedes-Benz CL-Class
Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
Today's Chats
