High End Luxury Cars

24697 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#7774 of 24697 Re: The new Chrysler 300 [xkss] by brightness04 Feb 19, 2005 (6:41 am)
Replying to: xkss (Feb 19, 2005 4:45 am) Almost any daring retro design can be popular for a few months (or even longer, witness the New Beetle craze a few years ago). Ultimately however, it's the internals that matters. Crossfire was very sought after (Chrysler's first sold-at-MSRP car for nearly a decade), but now has months of supply queued up in the supply chain. "Cool" is in the eyes of behold. Magnum sales can not compare to Taurus wagon in its hey days, nor Focus wagon today.
#7775 of 24697 Re: Sales volume [denaliinpa] by brightness04 Feb 19, 2005 (6:46 am)
Replying to: denaliinpa (Feb 19, 2005 6:37 am) complete nonsense and spin. That's certainly a very intelligent rebuttal. I will take it as you are unable to make any counter-argument to the points I made. Namely: (1) Lexus has higher significantly higher price of admission than MB does, even in the US (the difference is far greater in Europe) (2) Lexus average selling price is higher than that of MB, in the US and worldwide. What does that say about which is the higher end luxury marquee?? (3) Halo cars sold in relatively small numbers compared to the rest of the lineup do not make a high end maruqee.
#7776 of 24697 Re: brightness04 [brightness04] by syswei Feb 19, 2005 (6:50 am)
Replying to: brightness04 (Feb 19, 2005 2:50 am) "industrial insiders at the site referenced above concur; if you follow the link for a few pages you will actually see an in-depth analysis of the 2002 Audi A8 Space Frame Aluminum Intensive structure and its disadvantages" Errrr...American engineers don't know what they're talking about. Only German engineers do. Don't you know that? hehehe.
#7777 of 24697 Re: brightness04 [brightness04] by denaliinpa Feb 19, 2005 (6:58 am)
Replying to: brightness04 (Feb 19, 2005 2:50 am) more nonsense and spin.... you post a link to US Steel!!! now there is an unbiased promotion!!!! is this the best you could do? i read all of it. and guess what....they complain that the last version A8 is heavier than the "steel" LS430!!duh...it has AWD? did it ever occur to you that any weight savings made by using aluminum afford an automaker the ability to ad more equipment that other wise might make the automobile too heavy? even after reading all of the article which is clearly biased....the A8 is obviously one of the most advanced automobile designs in the world. what a joke!! tell you what...i will go to ALCOA.... find an article about "how aluminum is better than steel" and post a link. don't you think it might be a bit biased? duh!!! both steel and aluminum manufacturers are fighting neck and neck to supply the auto industry. i read an article in USA today about a year ago that was quite interesting. i will try to find it. hopefully it will have less spin and sales pitch. Replies to this message: brightness04 (Feb 19, 2005 7:08 am)
#7778 of 24697 Re: brightness04 [denaliinpa] by brightness04 Feb 19, 2005 (7:08 am)
Replying to: denaliinpa (Feb 19, 2005 6:58 am) did it ever occur to you that any weight savings made by using aluminum afford an automaker the ability to ad more equipment that other wise might make the automobile too heavy? Or trying to make up for inadequate engineering. the A8 is obviously one of the most advanced automobile designs in the world. what a joke!! The joke is on you. Obviously, each one of LS, 7, S and A8 is "one of the most advanced automobile designs in th world." Dah! You'd think after spending that much money it ought to be. Biased or not, the steel side certainly has the material expertise and have a long list of disadvantages for aluminum. As far as I can tell, the only counter-argument the aluminum side expert witness can provide is weight savings, which in the case of A8 is quite removed from the spirit of the vehicle. More to the point, A8 only makes up 3% of Audi sales. How can you argue that differentiates Audi from VW? "Nonsens and spin"?
#7779 of 24697 reversing the spin by denaliinpa Feb 19, 2005 (7:31 am)
http://www.autoaluminum.org/sp1.htm here is a link to an article from Reuters about aluminum in automobiles. it is on a biased site that promotes aluminum but the article is interesting. there is also a sub article that discusses the previous generation A8....how it received 5 stars in crash tests. for any person to believe that an ALL ALUMINUM A8 is not different than a an ALL STEEL Phaeton...."talking to you is like a martian trying to have a discussion with a fungo"{Bull Durham). many auto manufacturers are using aluminum today to save weight in their vehicles. the current E class has an aluminum hood, trunk and i believe front fenders. only the Audi has taken it to the advanced technical level of a completely all aluminum vehicle. whether you like Audi or not what they accomplished is very advanced. Replies to this message: brightness04 (Feb 20, 2005 9:34 am)
#7780 of 24697 Construction.. by sv7887 Feb 19, 2005 (7:58 am)
Hi All, I don't see the benefits of aluminum unless the car weighs significantly less..The point about the Audi is that even with AWD, it shouldn't weigh more..Even Jaguar's offering weighs less than it's counterpart...It's comparable to Boeing's composite 787 jetliner weighing more than the aluminum 767 it is replacing. Another problem with aluminum is the hassle in getting the thing repaired..It might make a great marketing tool, but I wouldn't want the hassle..I'll stick to steel until Mercedes or Lexus goes that way. What I find interesting is that the world leader, Mercedes, in safety hasn't adopted this technology. I don't feel unsafe in my LS430 (Especially after taking quite a hit in my LS400), but I feel MB is first to the market with alot of safety innovations..One of the things I was most impressed with in the S Class was it's obvious sturdiness. I wouldn't be too worried about surviving a crash in that car. The Mercedes salesman mentioned something about the frame being made from one metal block rather than being welded like other cars...Is there any real significance to that? As for Jaguar..The latest XJ is a nice car, but the Jaguar purists are not happy due to it's design..Ford attempts at preserving the look haven't worked thus far..The concepts for the new XK look good..Only time will tell... SV
#7781 of 24697 MB going in the tank by kc56 Feb 19, 2005 (8:39 am)
I keep reading all these stories about How bad Mercedes-Benz is doing and yet they only changed one guy at the top. This Cordes guy. He seems pretty sharp and apparently has done a good job before. Yet in the US, it seems they have weak management who have devasted the product and taken away the scheduled maintenance and are losing money and it seems really don't understand the US market. Why not make a change here also? When Chrysler neeeded help they brought in Zietche and Eberhardt who both knew the US Market, at Mercedes in the US, they took a company doing very well going in the right direction and brought in what has turned out to be sub-par manangement, who had never been in the US before and they have now managed to run in it into the ground and our stock will take the hit. Maybe Kirkorian should run it.
#7782 of 24697 Re: Lexus...brand vs reality [michael_mattox] by rl81 Feb 19, 2005 (9:33 am)
Replying to: michael_mattox (Feb 17, 2005 8:27 pm) "Audi A-8 336 HP...O-60 6.3 sec..No bad for a big car." "Lexus LS430 290 HP...0-60... 5.9 SEC...and it gets much better gas milage." Why don't you tell the whole truth? Where does the A8 reach its peak HP? at 6500rpm! Where does the LS reach its peak HP? at 5600rpm! Torque? about the same: 317 A8 vs. 320 LS Is (18/25 LS vs. 18/24 A8) that so much better??? The Audi weighs about 300 lb. more (8%) Now, the discussion between alu space frame and conventional steel is very interesting. I have seen the difference between the two in the production. I can tell you that much: the alloy spaceframe is considerably harder to manufacture. It takes a lot more people to put together a spaceframe than a convantional frame, which is manufactured mostly by robots. Audi has a considerable experience in alu frames, since they are the first who did that in large scale production, as far as I know. The new Rolls-Royce is an aluminum space frame, for example. Replies to this message: michael_mattox (Feb 19, 2005 10:27 am) rl81 (Feb 19, 2005 2:21 pm) michael_mattox (Feb 19, 2005 3:52 pm) ljflx (Feb 21, 2005 2:06 pm) brightness04 (Feb 20, 2005 9:41 am) rl81 (Feb 20, 2005 11:08 am)
#7783 of 24697 Re: Lexus...brand vs reality [rl81] by michael_mattox Feb 19, 2005 (10:27 am)
Replying to: rl81 (Feb 19, 2005 9:33 am) RL81: I am not a real knowledge Auto guy...Don't know how to fix them...or build them..Only know how to buy them...Question.. If the Lexus has Almost 16% Less HP...and slightly more toque..AND IS MUCH FASTER 0-60 What is the relavance of the LS reaching Peak HP at a lower RPM...ISN'T THAT A GOOD THING. Replies to this message: rl81 (Feb 19, 2005 2:21 pm) michael_mattox (Feb 19, 2005 3:52 pm) ljflx (Feb 21, 2005 2:06 pm)