Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#7639 of 24723 Re: [brightness04]
Feb 17, 2005 (12:04 pm)
Check the stats for European sales before you say that the LS is more prevalent than the A8L. Also, the A8L beat the Lexus in a comparo from Motor Trend last year. It all depends on the magazine. The A8L has garnished more world-wide accolades than any car in its class. A3s aren't sold in the US first of all. Audi moved 12100 A8s in Western Europe, BMW moved 12150 7-Series, and MB moved about 16,000 S-Classes in Western Europe in 2004. Lexus sold a total of 20,000 vehicles in Western Europe, so I do not see how there are more LSs in Europe than A8s as you claim. You get a reality check and don't belittle other people because they do not agree with your opinion, because that is all it is.
A true end high luxury marquee as you state would only apply to Rolls, Bently, etc. if you use your logic. Again, you fail to see my point. A true luxury marquee must have a world presence. Why is Lexus now turning to design and performance aspects because it sees it cannot shove mindless cars down European's throats as it does in America. World-wide, Lexus is a poser and that is it. Come back in ten years and then start your discussion.
Feb 17, 2005 (12:15 pm)
Where have I ever claimed that there are more LSs in Europe than A8s? You need get a reality check yourself.
As far as I know, Lexus is only beginning to set up a dealer network in Europe.
Audi's worldwide presence is not a luxury marquee at all. Nearly 3 out of 4 Audis sold worldwide in 2004 were A3's and A4's. These are not luxury cars. You can't have it both ways, claiming world presence for Audi as high marquee definition then discounting plebian A3 as not relevent to the marquee because it's not yet sold in the US. Worldwide presence is quite irrelevent, it would be hard to deny Cadillac STS and DTS or Toyota Crown as high end luxury marquees even though they are only offered in their home markets.
If you really want to talk about world-wide, MB and Audi are not lexury brands at all. The majority of their cars compete with Toyota, Ford and GM/Opel.
#7641 of 24723 Washed Up Reality
Feb 17, 2005 (12:24 pm)
Your sound a like another jealous, hopeless europhile who spins things to fit your BS agenda. Keep dreaming about the washed out german junk produced today. Lexus is kicking down the door and they're taking over the house. You should know and do that Japan is the premier quality and manufacturing king of today and that's not changing soon. Bow down to the best and learn, adapt or pay the price like Mercedes is doing.
German cars are inferior to what Japan makes today, I dont care what price range high-low they are inferior in build, electrical and robustness. They are moody, unpredictable, overcomplicated just like just like the people who build them. 2nd rate quality priced like Tiffany. Germany is a washed out second rate country and power globally. Their even mocked by our own defense secretary. Their high cost socialist welfare state and labor rate makes them all the more disadvantaged globally along with making cars that are delicate and break easy. Just remember Asia is where it's happening Europe is soon becoming irrelevant. The Euros are envious like you of the Asians because they work harder are more disciplined people and have the highest performing kids in schools learning to make better Lexus's.
Audi's are the saddest case of all, not bought by hardly anyone here and made to look purdy on the outside but internals that matter are garbage and 3rd rate. The LS430 is many times better than the dismal selling, low resale value overweight porker A8 clad in aluminum. Any advantage the A8 might have now will be history when they try to benchmark the next LS like they did the bigger disaster Phaeton. The germans are clueless about quality and it shows year after year. Take your potshots at Lexus I got many more in store for consumption.
Feb 17, 2005 (12:28 pm)
Why is Lexus now turning to design and performance aspects because it sees it cannot shove mindless cars down European's throats as it does in America.
Puleeeaze! Enough American bashing already. Europeans have plenty crap cars like Fiat, Citroen and Rover that simply could not make it here in the most competitive market in the world: North America. VW/Audi may be on the brink here again soon. European bureacrats and governments provide a safety net as buyers of last resort to their domestic car brands; talk about shoving mindless cars down taxpayers' throats. Lexus moving beyond their core competence in pursuit of design and performance goals simply because they want expand their product range to conquer more market segments.
World-wide, Lexus is a poser and that is it.
Worldwide, an average Lexus is much more luxurious and at a much higher price point than an average MB or Audi.
Feb 17, 2005 (1:00 pm)
I agree with the above this Euro poser guy is thumping his chest like the Germans make good cars. Throw a boomerang and it's going to come back and hit you on head. Get real dude! They make average quality cars with above average problems and pricing. Lexus is cleaning their clocks and now we have Infiniti executing great products to make BMW feel the hurt. BTW, the new GS looks like a million bucks in person and should hit the boring looking E class pretty hard.
My engineer brother hates Germans cars because long ago he had an Audi A6 that was a true piece of crap that had many electrical problems and parts failing early on. Thats why I still love to pick on Audis because they to this day still continue to make designer duds as does Mercedes which is a bigger issue than irrelevant small time Audi. The only thing missing on the new Audis is the loud back up buzzer beep, beep, beep
semi backing up.
Feb 17, 2005 (1:15 pm)
I think you are right ...I need to find one to drive.
Feb 17, 2005 (1:28 pm)
Europe is old country and is dying. The future belongs to Asia. Look at consumer electronics. Look at how hard those kids study in Asia compare to European kids. Look at how hard people work in Japan compare to those lazy workers in Germany or France. MB will go the way of RR, only memories of the great past.
#7647 of 24723 Excuse me here for a minute folks
Feb 17, 2005 (1:33 pm)
Let's keep to the cars. We don't need to be arguing about where people work harder and other things of that nature that have nothing to do with our subject.
Another point is that some of posts in here are getting too personal. If you don't like someone else's opinion, that's fine, but debate the opinions presented and keep what you think of the poster out of it.
Feb 17, 2005 (2:01 pm)
Err... I think that Lexus is really cleaning up vs. BMW, Benz and Audi in the US, and isn't the US the biggest car market in the world? Besides, Lexus is starting dealerships in Japan, and will probably head to Europe soon enough. A bit of a reality check (not meant to offend)
In the US, we have more money to spend on cars than anywhere else in the world (generality) Companies like Audi and Benz with the A3/4 and A,C and stripped E classes only do that because they have to in order to surivive. Also, a lot of the streets are smaller in Europe. I really don't think that I would buy a BMW or Audi over a Lexus. Lexus has them creamed (in the US) just because the cars are comparable but a bunch less. Not that I don't like Audi, but that's just because of the technical problems they all seemed to have a while back. Trust me, I hold grudges, which is perfectly normal for a comsumer. (Consuming cars, eh?)
Here's my list of true luxury marques:
Bentley (my favorite)
Rolls-Royce (gaudy, but oh well)
Mercedes-Benz (cachet! woohoo!)
Bugatti (woot woot)
Audi (to an extent, but I'm not buying one)
Lexus (Traaditional luxury, and no doubt about it)