Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Feb 17, 2005 (2:03 am)
That was a mouthfull, but speaking of the DTM there is one very special Mercedes-Benz that Mercedes itself doesn't want everyone to know about. It won the DTM in 2003, the CLK DTM AMG:
Unlike the Mercedes SLR McLaren which tops out at 205 mph because of friction etc. the CLK DTM AMG is electronically limited to 199 mph as to not step on the SLR's toes. There were only 100 of these made for about 260K which is also much less than the SLR, all have been spoken for and none are certified for sale in the U.S. Most magazines have called this the best Mercedes-Benz currently made, by far.
#7618 of 24723 Re: Sheep will be Sheep
Feb 17, 2005 (2:07 am)
All A8L W12s allocated to the US have been presold and now require a waiting list. So, save the BS comments about abberations. The A8L will continue to thrive. In Europe for 2004, the new A8L outsold the 7-Series. Just because American buyers don't buy it large numbers (thank goodness - wouldn't want to be like a Lexus)doesn't mean it is not a great automobile. As they say sheep wiil be sheep. So go to your local Lexus dealer.
Feb 17, 2005 (5:25 am)
It seems like you're the one who needs a "Reality Check"
"I will refrain from comparing an LS to A8L,7-Series, or S-Class as true auto enthusiasts know the difference easily. Also, Lexus lacks any true motor sport heritage, a very important aspect to a true marquee"
Hmm reeks of snobbery to me. So Car and Driver and the rest of the automotive press are all wrong?? Sorry I've driven ALL of those cars you mentioned and the only one that had a big difference was the 7 Series. Btw, the LS Ultra does have that Fridge and whatever toys your precious A8 has. I'll take my superior quality. residual, and 20K savings and laugh all the way to the bank. So far NO ONE has made an OBJECTIVE argument against Lexus..All I see here is pure arrogance with these "opinions."
"how reliable their Lexus is. The Germans are quite reliable as well. Lexus people would like everyone to believe that the German UberKlasse (Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz) are breaking down all the time or something. That is simply Lexus BS!"
Okay, so you are going to deny 10+ yrs of JD Power Statistics??? So I'm assuming you've done your own econometric regression analysis to come up with that conclusion...JAGUAR is the most reliable Euro marque at this moment...
"I have driven your precious little LS and if anyone thinks that it compares to an A8L, then I have some nice swamp land to sell you."
Wrong again, the LS beat the A8 in the last Car and Driver Comparison and was second in the Road and Track one..IF the A8 is SOOO great, why are the residuals so poor in the US? Explain to me why all of these Marques can't match Toyota's revenue? The true measure of success is the profit..I could care less about your unsubstantiated opinions. Get some facts.
"Try an Audi S4 or Audi RS6 or a BMW M3 or BMW M5 sometime if you want to know what REAL driving is about. We know our marquees were built for driving and handling. We push them like no senior citizen pushs his Lexus to the Senior Citizen Center."
So you're comparing a modified sports car to a bunch of Luxury sedans? BTW the Lexus IS has done relatively well in the performance category..It just has a lousy interior. I'm sure there are twin turbo GS400's in Japan that beg to differ as well..Is your point about driving and handling your excuse for subpar quality? Right and HOW many people push their 7 Series, S Classes on the highway?? The speed limit in the US is 55 MPH...Even in London, it's 70..Are you actually going to claim the majority of BMW, MB, and Audi owners actually race their cars on the track? You've got to be kidding me.
"In Europe a Lexus is viewed as the "Schweinmobile" or the "pig car" because of its design. Europeans who buy Lexus usually cannot afford an Audi, BMW, or Mercedes-Benz. It is third choice to Europeans, if a choice at all with those sales numbers. Lexus has strived for a long time to establish itself in Europe "
More generalizations...Last time I checked Germay wasn't Europe..In London where I have a second home, I see a fair amount of LS430's. I have yet to see an A8 there..However there are tons of S Classes around (S320 CDI's...Now why don't they bring that to the US? I'd buy it!) Lexus in Europe has largely been an afterthought..
I think the lack of success of Lexus can be attributed to the strong brand loyalty BMW and MB have in European countries. Contrary to what you say, Lexus cars in Europe are far more expensive than they are in the US...Also, the culture is different than the US in that they desire something else from the car..I find that my European collegues are far more tolerant of defects that I am..It's almost customary to spend their Saturdays with the car.
That Passat is a real nice looking car..Now who stole the design, Buick or VW? I'm guessing Buick, which is kind of sad..They used to have some nice designs back in the day..
Another Question..Why is it we don't see the S320 CDI in the US? In my frequent travels to London I see them everywhere..It's definitely a car I'd consider buying. The Diesel must give great mileage and last an eternity. I really wish MB and the rest of the marques would offer "Stripped Down" cars without all the gimmicks..It's pure opinion on my part, but I think some buyers out there feel that all these gadgets distract from the real driving experience.
Feb 17, 2005 (6:20 am)
Europeans are different than Americans. Here we need a car day in and day out. Cars are necessities. In Europe, cars are toys. If a toy is always in service, it doesn't affect your life that much. If you need a car for work, that's a different story.
#7621 of 24723 Re: denali [denaliinpa]
Feb 17, 2005 (7:04 am)
yeah....$11000.00 more for an air suspension.
That's only 15% of the total vehicle cost, much less than the price premium of some German inferior vehicles
the Phaeton is made of steel...the A8 aluminum. in my book that makes them pretty different. the W12 makes 450HP...to the 4.2's 335HP!
W12 is offered both on the Phaeton and A8. The lightest aluminum A8 still weighs more than LS, so all aluminum construction in that car gives you is much higher body shop bills, less ductile metal for the cumple zone, and more dangerous in case of fire (remember HMS Sheffield??). The W12 power-ed porcinemobiles weigh close to 5000lbs! rendering the extra HP mute and pointless.
Feb 17, 2005 (7:25 am)
Lexus managed 20,000 in sales in Western Europe for 2004 vs. 560,000 for Audi alone. Yes, Audi sells less in the US, but at least they sold 80,000 units to Lexus 280,000 or so in NA, and this is a bigger market than Europe (not by much though)
More than two thirds of that 80k and 560k were A4's and A3's, neither of which are luxury cars!. That's why Audi has real difficulty maintaining its claim to be a true high end luxury marquee.
Feb 17, 2005 (7:29 am)
If there is 50/50 buy/lease rate in the U.S. then that 50 percent that buyers may or may not be deterred by the price difference, thats my point.
That may explain a 10% sales difference (i.e. 20% buyers have price as their decisive factor). The reality is that LS outsells individual German brands by a factor of 2 or more. You can't be seriously arguing that buyers in this market segment only care about price.
#7624 of 24723 Re: brightness04 [merc1]
Feb 17, 2005 (7:32 am)
As they say, eyes are windows to the soul . . . hence the significance of drastic headlight style changes, and in general anything up front. The rest of the body is often after-thought for the general public.
Feb 17, 2005 (7:34 am)
"That Passat is a real nice looking car..Now who stole the design, Buick or VW? I'm guessing Buick, which is kind of sad..They used to have some nice designs back in the day.."
Well I wouldn't say either one of the stole the design since both of these are 2006 cars that were on the drawing board at the same time.
You might just see a next generation S-Class diesel here for 2007 or 2008, after U.S. diesel fuel is cleaned up, low sulfur. I doubt if it will the 6-cylinder model you're talking about the S320 CDI, but the V8 next-gen S400CDI definitely has a chance here in 2007.
#7626 of 24723 Re: Curious Point...... [merc1]
Feb 17, 2005 (7:36 am)
V8 and RWD sedan are both unique to Lexus in the Toyota empire. I can't think of anything unique to Audi vs. VW (that aluminum body doesn't cut it as the lightest configuration weighs 4250lbs! all you get is high body repair bill and less safety).