Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Feb 16, 2005 (7:38 am)
"This tells me that styling and headlines (MB's patch fix for the last 10 years) was what they wanted and let the drivers figure out how to deal with the limited sight they are given.
Now wait a min, just because Chrysler (I assume you're talking about my question to desigman about the 300C) can actually make a good looking car all of sudden styling has been a "patch fix" for Mercedes' problems. That is the part that seems ridiculous to me my friend. Is this the theory because Lexus can't style a good looking car to go with all their quality and surveys for all those who actually look for more than a glowing JDP or CR report in their vehicle? I've ridden in the car and I could see out if it fine, and guess what most cars are getting taller and harder to see out of nowadays. Why do you think Lexus and others have started offering rear mounted cameras in their cars.
BTW, 10 years ago the C, E, S, and other Mercedes were of traditional Mercedes upright design, not the swoopier models out today. The sleeker theme you see today started with the 2000 S-Class.
Feb 16, 2005 (10:02 am)
MB's latest avant garde design cues started with the 1996 S class (introduced in 1995) with the two pairs of size-differentiated bug eyes. So that was about 10 years ago. Before then, for decades, MB used to stand for square grills with square lenses. It was the Italian maker Fiat that was into exterior design flair. MB just sold boring cars on their intrinsic "solidness." We know what eventually happened to Fiat in the competitive North America market.
#7569 of 24726 Re: Audi/BMW/MB [denaliinpa]
Feb 16, 2005 (10:29 am)
in this segment "I" believe the customer wants more than a one size fits all approach. this is just another difference that separates "Z" Germans from the Japanese.
Lets' see here. MB is 118+-yr-old, BMW is 80+-yr-old, and Lexus is what ? 15-yr-old ??? See any point in that history ? Lexus is a *young* company, and will only grow at the expense of the others (has done that so far). Even the one-size-fits-all LS is doing extremely well compared to the multiple-size-fits=everyone S and BMW versions. Take US sales of all S-class (430/500/600/55), then add all 7-series (745/760) and you just about match the LS430 sales. Hmmmmm ! What can one infer from this fact ? Does the market not speak for these cars in terms of their sales ?
Finally, by MY2008 or thereafter, there will be other variants of the LS - LS460/500/GT, including LWB and SWB trims. And oh, imagine a hybrid Lexus lux-car with ~600hp V12-like output, but delivers a refreshing V6-like gas economy ??? What would MB and Audi and BMW throw at Lexus to compete with this car ?
Feb 16, 2005 (10:34 am)
In the U.S. market, as others have pointed out, the LS outsells the S by a healthy margin and the A8 by a ridiculous margin.
Now, if having all those S and A8 variations is so desirable, and if the S and A8 are sooooo much more luxurious than the LS (to the point that they are in a different and higher class entirely, according to you), how could that sales performance possibly happen????
#7571 of 24726 Re: denali [syswei]
Feb 16, 2005 (10:57 am)
Someone will say its because of price, but of course no one looks at the fact that lease prices are very close to one another in all cases except maybe an S500 where there is a 250-300 difference to a $62K LS. In the case of the LS ultra it's lease cost is higher than an A8 even though the latter stickers $5K more. Lexus plays the game with real interest rates and probably residuals that are too low. The others will never sacrifice list price so they resort to very low interest rates, increasing dealer advertising subsidiaries and overstating residuals. That only works until the auditors blow the whistle though. If your a thief you go further and cook the books the way Worldcom and Enron did. If your honest the profit bleed shows up the way it does for VW and MB.
Feb 16, 2005 (11:57 am)
Does your Audi have...AWD...does it have a V12 ..I have a LS430 ULTRA in which the transmission and Steering can be set up for sports mode at the push of a button. I get that and a superior suspension that gives a nicer ride then your Audi...I get Better Service....I get a Lighter Car..a car with cleaner emissions, that gets better milage has ample leg room in the back and front and a much smaller turning radius then your audi and still has a 20 cu.ft. trunk...I have Radar Cruse control, an easy to use Nav. system and the best Audio system put in by a manufacturer, I have through the seat Heating and Cooling, and a computer controlled air suspension system....I am sure you car has the obvious stuff as does mine like Auto wipers, folding outside mirrors that are heated and automatically dim a trailing cars head lights, a seat cusion that adjusts out to give me additional thigh support if I want it...and adjustable lumbar supports suports at two different levels...It has several levels of air filtration to keep out everything you don't want in....Especially pollin and gas odors etc and self closing doors...It also has a whole bunch or rear seat stuff that I wouldn't go into and other amenities that most cars have.
WHAT AMENITIES DOES YOUR AUDI HAVE? Especially anything that I haven't Mentioned...I am truly curious.
Feb 16, 2005 (1:09 pm)
Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat - it's open mic night, so come and discuss whatever's on your mind.
6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!
#7575 of 24726 brightness04
Feb 16, 2005 (1:48 pm)
Sorry, but there was no S-Class introduced in 1995 or 1996. The last S-Class came out in 1992. Now if you mean the E-Class of 1996, then yes they changed the front end, but the rest of the car was upright and traditional stody MB design. Take a look at one and you'll see what I mean. The slim, swoopier styling didn't come full circle until the 2000 S-Class and the 2001 C-Class and back again with the 2003 E-Class. The E of 1996 only changed front end light treatment. The start of inset grilles began with the facelift of the previous W124 E-Class in 1994 and the new S-Class of 1992. Small incremental changes at best, the real thing came for 2000 with the totally new S.
Feb 16, 2005 (1:56 pm)
I'm reading this about the A8L and LS430 and it's hilarious for the most part but seriously why do you think eveyrone leases? There has been an extreme contradition on this thread from the start. One minute one of the LS430's biggest virtues is that it cost less than the S-Class, 7-Series, or A8, yet in the same post it will be said that they all cost about the same. Which is it? Every one doesn't lease and for cash folks the difference in price does make some type of difference. The average LS doesn't even sell (62-64K) for what a A8, 745i or S430 stickers for, yet this doesn't make a difference? Come on now.