Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#7463 of 24726 Re: [denaliinpa]
Feb 13, 2005 (4:26 pm)
You still ignore the fact that the ES by parts content shares 25% commonality with a Camry. That does not make it the same car!! Try and back up your opinions with facts for a change.
I don't know where you get your info from, but the RX in no way is a Highlander. The RX debuted in 1998. Highlander came along a few years later. I don't see the resemblace sorry..The RX is at least twice the price of a Highlander..I've been in both and there isn't anything identical.
Even the autorags disagree with your assessment of Lexus..Why is it that they rank the LS higher than most of those brands? In the last C/D comparo, the LS won..It came in second to the Audi in another. If your "opinion" was correct, why do diehard performance fans like C/D put the LS against these cars in the same place?
What higher levels are you talking about? Electronics that don't work? Complicated interfaces that befuddle even Car and Driver? Seven Speed transimissions that have a 4% improvement on Fuel Economy? (Mind you even 911's don't have that!)
Have you noticed the correlation of the introduction of these systems with reduced reliability? JD Power has ranked Lexus No 1 for seven years running! The hybrid technology is more of a innovation than iDrive will ever be. Having just been through the car shopping experience, the Lexus had everything MB, Audi, and BMW did (and more), save the iDrive nonsense. Luxury? You obviously have never been in a LS430..It's cabin trumps anything save a Jaguar Vandenplas.
Design? What's so great about BMW's Bangle design? Audi is okay, and MB is nothing special.. Jaguar rightly holds the award for that...The only advantage a German car has over Lexus is Handling ability. (BMW) I don't see anything special about an Audi or MB...From my perspective, the 15K premium I was about to pay on the S430 was merely for the MB prestige and the 4 Matic.
I think calling the Lexus a "thinking man's car" is a fair label..Lexus owners look at the Objective statistics and make their decision. We examine things such as reliability, depreciation, safety, customer service surveys, etc to evalute our purchase..To a Lexus owner our time is money, we don't have the patience to deal with gimmicks laden cars nor do we relish the idea of dealing with arrogant dealers and suspect cars. Mind you a fair number of Lexus owners are former MB owners. Ever wonder why they switched?
#7464 of 24726 Re: [denaliinpa]
Feb 13, 2005 (4:49 pm)
when i view luxury brands Lexus is in my mind more equal to Infiniti and Acura while MB, BMW, and Audi sit on a higher level
Really ? And tell me who is the #1 LUXURY seller in the US market ? The answer ain't MB, BMW or Audi either. If Lexus is not a luxury car maker, then MB isn't either.
Bash Lexus all you like, its kicking the others you-know-what, at least in the NA market, and is poised to expand globally. Toyota is forecasting strong performances in the next 5 years, and all signs point to them outperforming their competition from here forward. Guess we'll see, won't we ?
Feb 13, 2005 (4:53 pm)
ok...the Camry and the ES have the same engine and drive train, same platform. what is so hard to understand? sitting in a vehicle does not tell the entire story.
I've driven many Lexus automobiles. their interior is easily more user friendly than the 7. when you compare the materials and the level of quality it is my opinion just not on the level of the German competition.
no matter how you cut it the fact that MB even offers 4 matic is a big plus. the breadth of MB's line up is so far beyond Lexus.
as for MB owners switching?? what does this mean? people try new brands out all of the time. I've owned MB, BMW, and currently and Audi. does that mean i will never drive another brand again? you take brand loyalty to a level that is counter to being a "thinking man".
when it comes to automobiles...higher end automobiles i am always amazed that when a person chooses a Lexus they let the statistics of others make the decision for them. why not just purchase a car you really like? all cars are manufactured very well today. to have to justify a purchase that has a bland design
because jdpowers says so.....is just not for me!
cars to me..... are just not appliances.
Feb 13, 2005 (4:57 pm)
Lotta desperate sounding Euro cheerleaders here. Sounding a little threatened again I see.
Actually Lexus on a whole is better than 90% of todays low quality German product. Mercedes has rotten quality and finally admitted it. BMW now has bad styling and bad reliability and Audi can't move product past 80K units a year here making it near dead last in market. Though, the new swallow-me-whole grill should help that.
The LS 430 in ultra luxury form is better than S430 or S500 combined. Fit/finish and quality of materials and electronics/ ergonomics ridicule the once shining 3-point star thats now in deep doo-doo. S class aint nothing unless its on MTV Cribs with 20 inchers. Audi A8's a better car. The ES330 is more luxurious and content rich then the vanilla looking 50K E class. Lexus doesn't have an SUV that was designed in the Cold War era either and pretend to charge 70K for it. What a joke!
Just read that Mercedes is now so afraid of the upcoming new super Lexus model threat, that their going to even offer a hybrid S class version probably licensed from Toyota. Who's copying who now? Lexus will offer a LWB S600 level car next round in the 600 hp range using hybrid technology.
The strong Japanese luxury brands should nicely steam roll and flatten the sick & washed up German auto industry just like the Big 2-1/2 were. Mercedes has their priorities sraight you know and is turning it around fighting back. They just unveiled new Nano paint technology to prevent further scratching. I agree 100% that Mercedes, BMW and Audi do sit on a higher level that would be the repair shop lift.
Feb 13, 2005 (4:57 pm)
yes they sell more units than their German competition....in the US only. the only part that they leave out is that most of the cars they sell are ES330s and Rx330's. hardly luxury cars. more near luxury. maybe a new segment should be established..."Near Luxury".
Feb 13, 2005 (5:13 pm)
There is such a segment for those cars "Entry Level Luxury" You pointed out that the ES shares the frame, engine and transmission with the Camry..Does that consititute 100% of the car? It does sound more like 25%..I've driven both cars and know the difference between the two..The defect rate of an ES is much lower than that of a Camry. Keep in mind the ES is assembled solely in Japan whilst a big chunk of Camry's are made in Kentucky.
As far as quality..I just drove a S Class..There was a great deal of plastic in that car..Hardly befitting for a 77K sedan. The interior was nothing special..The LS has better wood accents and softer leather..The Ultra is even better than my car..My 1992 LS400 has been trouble free to this date..I don't think the Euro cars can match that kind of reliability.
Not all cars are built equally..Have a look at JDP and see where those German marques rank..It's sad when Jaguar is the highest ranked nameplate..I don't buy cars on a whim. I actually do "Really like" my Lexus' cars. I don't have the time or patience to deal with any quirks..Had I, a Jaguar would have been in my garage a long time ago. Hence my label of Lexus as a "Thinking Man's Car"
#7469 of 24726 While it is obvious
Feb 13, 2005 (5:49 pm)
that, within reason, more money buys more car (or, at least, more luxury options, better leather and sound system) I am amused at the ongoing discussion on which car has more status...are we so shallow, hollow and insecure that we must have everyone else think we have status because we purchased a 2005 (fill-in-your-car)...I can appreciate JD Power on defects-per-car as one parameter for purchase, altho it does not say what happens after 3-4 years when most cars will actually break down and cost money to repair if out of warranty...I appreciate the quality in MB, Lexus, Audi, Acura and many others, but if ANYBODY thinks I will attribute status to them because they drive the S500, or A8L, or LS430UL, you folks need counseling badly...status (or esteem from others) is something you earn by what you are and what you do, not by something you buy...after all, many of the cars you suggest are the vehicles driven by the drug dealers of the inner city, and if that is the status you want, you have more money than brains...then again, that describes Teddy Kennedy...
#7470 of 24726 Re: [denaliinpa]
Feb 13, 2005 (5:52 pm)
the only part that they leave out is that most of the cars they sell are ES330s and Rx330's. hardly luxury cars
Hmmm.... Let's correct you, again.
What is MB's best seller in the US ? Its not the S-class, is it ? How 'bout BMW ?, what is their best seller ? Once again, it's not the 7 ! How about Audi ? Well... not the A8 either. See how your argument falls flat on its face ?
Facts, ma'am, just facts....
Read sapparo's post once again. See anything in there you'd like to correct ?
#7471 of 24726 Re: While it is obvious [marsha7]
Feb 13, 2005 (5:55 pm)
That is hardly the case..The discussion erupted needlessly as someone attempted to slam Lexus. We're just defending our cars. Lexus owners are a very loyal group, and we love our cars..Not for status, but because of how they treat us.
My point is that the Lexus lineup is probably the best objective purchase you can make. If you read my posts, you'll see I could care less about status. At this point in my life I certainly have nothing to prove.
The argument is this: The LS430 is competitive with any German counterpart out there. Pure and simple. This has nothing to do with image or whatever. JDP long term surveys do indicate problems past the warranty period..They found that a 6 yr old LS400 was more reliable than a new BMW..Go figure.
#7472 of 24726 Re: [denaliinpa]
Feb 13, 2005 (6:02 pm)
I'm sorry but I guess you missed the grille changes on the S-class in 2003. Look, the major body change is now every 6 years and the in-between adjustment is 3 years. If you think only the LS was updated you are dead wrong. The S had the minor facelift in 2003, the LS in 2004 and the 7 this year. If you think the 2004 LS is a major design change then you may be the only one on earth who thinks that. Amazing how people only see what they want to to see.