Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Mar 02, 2001 (4:02 pm)
Your post seems to indicate that car design is subjective. Your very well thought out post about Audi and Jaguar styling makes clear that
you understand that car design is a matter of objective elements. Your objective criteria get replaced with "It's all personal style" when you talk about Lexus.
I think you should reconsider the car magazine Lexus double-speak about Lexus styling. Lexus is the most unoriginal design in the world. If it is not original, it came from somewhere else.
Can it be criticized for not being commited to design legacy when the legacy it would be committed to is its own? What legacy is that?
The 1990 Lexus was derived from Mercedes. The new one?
The car is so perfect it is boring. The opposite of perfect is flawed. Is perfection boring? Is flawed exciting?
I know car magazines mean "something" but "I'm bored with perfection." is very cynical.
I know it's 11 years old but do you think Lexus has to establish itself for reliablity and durability?
Car decisions might be personal, subjective, and irrational, but when you look at Lexus what you see is a "blank slate". You have yet to hear of recurring reliablity problems in the S Class?
Mercedes has an established reputation for durability but Lexus doesn't have a track record?
Is reputation qualitative and track record quantifiable? I enjoy your posts but you seem to keep changing the terms of your argument when it comes to Lexus.
#747 of 24726 I don't write *against* Lexus...
Mar 02, 2001 (4:27 pm)
...and the choice is equally subjective when it comes to all other brands, not just Lexus.
Lexus is just as valid a choice and contender for automobile excellence as anyone else. I do not dispute that.
And that is as far as the objectivity goes.
Everything that follows is far more murky. The concept of style is a matter of personal preference. Sure car designers set themselves goals, and I mentioned a few messages back those objectives seem to be becoming more and more similar. I did not really single out Lexus. I mentioned Audi and BMW do little for *my* eye, too. And that the next generation Jag seems to look bland.
And my personal perception is that, yes, Mercedes has taken risks in their latest designs, and given where the car industry stands, I have to applaud that. Am I a huge fan of the S-class and thus biased? Why would I have bought a Jaguar XJR then? I jyst call it as I see it, personally, and try to stay objective.
I am *not* a Lexus basher at all. I have said about 20 times I think it a phenomenal car, but the fact I don't *like* the lines of the design is taken as an attack against the brand, when in fact I state all along it is utterly irrelevant.
And yes, I do not think relaibility *problems* with the S-class are an established fact. Mind you, personally I think the reliability reputation of German cars is not quite justified anymore - they certainly do not stand head and shoulders aboive everybody else anymore. And my personal BMW experience was not devoid of gremlins. Great car, but it did act up a few times. More than the Citroen 2CV I owned as a student. But that is all such circumstancial evidence...
What *is* important is service. I hear Lexus offers great service, and that is key to the luxury segment. I do think Mercedes and BMW have bogged their service departments' excellence down with too many models. My wife has a Mercedes (and she is totally happy), but I know the Jaguar service department is a more pleasant experience. Might easily change when they come out with the X type.
And most definitely Lexus does not have one thing - tradition. It might be important to some, immaterial to others. But hey, all companies got started somewhere, and personally I have no doubt that 20 years down the line Lexus will have a legendary tradition of excellence.
Oh, and I should mention I think the SC430 styling is gutsy, so kudos to Lexus for that. Looks somewhat odd now, which might very well mean it'll turn into a classic.
#748 of 24726 Lexus, Jaguar, Mercedes Benz, Audi, Etc
Mar 02, 2001 (5:26 pm)
Guys, Guys, Guys... Like I said, I drive the MB S500, but I'll be honest, it took me a full 6 months to make up my mind between it , the LS430, and the BMW740il. Every single one of these cars are phenomenally engineered. Intead of us letting testosterone get the best of us we should all be counting our blessings that we can afford to drive any of these fine automobiles. Yes I chose the Benz for it's heritage, engineering and styling, but it won my money be one or two votes. Let's breathe, take a minute and realize that to even drive these cars one has to be in the top 1-3% of income earners in the US. That in and of itself is the true blessing. We could all be in Hyundais or worse yet homeless.I'm sure that most of us live in fine homes that these car compliment when we enter our driveways. I didn't buy the Lexus, but if they had a more agressive looking body style I would have.. Happy motoring.
Mar 02, 2001 (5:54 pm)
Choice is subjective.
Lexus is a valid choice (contender, whatever).
That is where the objectivity ends.
It didn't even start. I don't see how it can end.
-Lexus copied the Mercedes (twice).
-Whether the S Class has recurring problems or not is not a matter of opinion.
-Lexus has established a reputation for reliability and durability.
-Styling is not subjective. Whether you like it or not is subjective.
Mercedes never has a problem and Lexus has to prove itself? It sounds like a double standard to me.
BTW, the Pontiac Aztec is gutsy, odd, risk- taking, and not bland. I hope the SC430 has something else going for it.
#750 of 24726 ejerod
Mar 02, 2001 (6:10 pm)
I wholeheartedly agree with you. But the competitive fires in all of us is what has made us all successful (I assume) enough to afford these cars in the first place. Thus we are people who are prone to debate their merits. As long as we keep it clean and don't hit below the belt and insult each other, it is healthy. Sometimes it gets a little too emotional but if we are pros we can reign it in - witness Pablo and I in earlier posts today. And maybe, though this is a long-shot, the manufacturers are following some of the debate and draw upon the content to improve their cars. Good luck to you with your S-500. You couldn't have gone wrong or been unhappy with either of the other cars you were evaluating so though it took you 6 months you were always in a no lose situation. Now I wish you can help us out with this 2 feet plus of snow they are expecting up here in the NY/NJ area starting Sunday. I finally got my cars clean and can see my lawn and now more snow.
#751 of 24726 Just for arcoates
Mar 02, 2001 (7:41 pm)
I thought I recalled a comment by you about the car mags. That's what prompted my remark above. In going back, this is what I found in your earlier post, so I stand by what I said:
"You americans think that Motor Trend and Car and Driver count for a lot. The rest of the world thinks that most of the american publications are so yankee biased, and only care about SUV's and big american V8's."
Not trying to re-ignite an argument, I was just making a point in a healthy debate.
Mar 02, 2001 (9:13 pm)
I don't see a double standard, since I have mixed in critical coments about all brands. You are being too defensive. And I didn't say a word about Lexus copying Mercedes, so do not mix in comments from someone else.
And I can't recall saying the Aztec and the SC430 share anything. You are making your own argument up.