Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#7274 of 24726 Re: Audi A8 [ljflx]
Jan 13, 2005 (9:50 pm)
Wow ljflx you really need to do your research and make sure you know your facts before you speak. The A8 sales are not down at all...2004 finished with 5,943 units delivered in the US nearly 3 times as many as the previous A8 did in its best year of 1999. The handling of the car is absolutely amazing for a vehicle of its size. No nav system orders a person around and stating that if you hang out left approaching a right exit is obsured. Navigation satellites are not allowed to have greater than 250ft accuracy as mandated my the US Government. Want to complain a bout a bad navigation system, drive a MB with DVD nav on I-95 in south Florida while its repeating make a left turn for a right hand exit. Enjoy your Lexus as it obviously meet your needs, driving and electronic capabilities.
#7275 of 24726 Re: Now you've crossed the line! [liferules]
by kyfdx@Edmunds HOST
Jan 14, 2005 (8:24 am)
Fraulein Audi sounds like my kind of woman!!
#7276 of 24726 Re: Audi A8 [wvkiv]
Jan 14, 2005 (10:05 am)
I had read that the sales were 4,000 or so but if they are 6,000 than I stand corrected. It's still a tiny fraction of the pie and my point is that the lux crowd is not intrigued by this car and historically the car has a hard time selling more than 200 units a month. I found the handling to be good but not great. Maybe after reading so much about it I expected more than it delivered. As for staying left and exiting right - well - haven't you ever passed a slow moving vehicle in the right lane because you have enough clearance (and torque) to do so and still exit a highway. I never said the nav was bad just said I prefer the operating dynamics of how Lexus does it. As for that woman - sorry - she's got to go, along with the MMI.
#7277 of 24726 Re: Audi A8 [wvkiv]
Jan 14, 2005 (1:01 pm)
And here is the link to US car sales FY2003 vs FY2004
Audi sales are indeed 5,942 in FY2004, however, they represent ~50% growth YoY (vs FY2003). In contrast, and more towards Ljflx's point below, the LS sales were 32,272, representing a 5-fold margin of sales vs the A8. See, statistics don't lie, do they ?
#7278 of 24726 Re: Audi A8 [oac]
Jan 14, 2005 (4:41 pm)
Boy, you sure have an issue with the A8 don't you. The problem with the LS is that it is an old man's car in looks and in performance. If you choose to drive a car that puts you in total isolation from the road, that's your choice. Further, most enthusiasts do not even put the lexus ls in the same category as the A8, 7 series or S class.
I personally do not care if the LS outsells all three of the above brands combined as it is not in the same league.
Jan 14, 2005 (4:54 pm)
Define Enthusiast first..Car and Driver and the rest of the autorag consider the LS in the same league. If you're going to put down the LS point to some objective measure..In the last comparo I read, the LS was second to the A8 only b/c of their preference for "Soul." Any attempt to putdown the obvious success of the LS is arrogance.
Performance? The notion that the LS is slow is a myth..I've driven all of these cars and the only notable difference in handling was noted in the BMW. Straight line acceleration is comparable to all. Handling isn't 747 like as some here would believe..Have you even driven a LS430 with the Euro Suspension? Even the Auto rags agree it's competent but doesn't have the feel of the BMW.
Looks? The 7 Series is certainly nothing to look at..I'm sure you're aware of how universally the 7 has been lambasted for its current design and iDrive..The S-Class tail looks more like a Korean car than a 85K sedan. The spyshots I've seen of the new one are even worse.. If you want to talk looks, let's talk about Jaguar. They continue to produce the most eye catching designs out there. Have you had a look at their successor to the XK?..Breathtaking..
#7280 of 24726 Re: Audi A8 [flyfisher1]
Jan 14, 2005 (5:18 pm)
"most enthusiasts do not even put the lexus ls in the same category as the A8, 7 series or S class"
While there is a handling difference between the LS and the 7, for you to say that performance-wise the LS "isn't in the same league" as the S is a bit of a strech:
2005 LS430: 0-60 5.9 sec, 290 hp, 320 lb-ft
2005 S430: 0-60 6.9 sec, 275 hp, 295 lb-ft
Who isn't in the same league?
#7281 of 24726 Re: Audi A8 [syswei]
Jan 14, 2005 (6:01 pm)
It would seem as if I have struck a soft spot with you. I have indeed driven them all (S Class, 7 Series, LS, Audi). There is no comparison. The LS does not belong in that class. As per straight line performance - that is only one measure. I don't know about you, but I do not sit at stoplights anymore and look to race the car next to me to the next stoplight. What I prefer is a car that has more of a "driver's" perspective as regards performance (ride, acceleration, handling). And - a car that is all wheel drive in addition. I have never - ever - heard the ls described as a driver's car. It's referred to as quiet, smooth and isolated from the road. I spent a week in one. It was totally uninvolving as a car. In addition, I found it's interior very plain and uninspiring. Also, it is a "knock-off" to MB S as regards styling.
Jan 14, 2005 (6:10 pm)
Read which car Edmunds places at the top. Read which car Automobile places at the top. Read the recent comments in Autoweek of their long tern car. As for looks. The A8 is universally commented upon favorably. I couldn't agree with you more as regards the 7 series (they have lost their way and are having significant problems with their computer systems in the 5 and 7's). As regards Jaguar - the XKE is their iconic car. They need to get a new original thought as to car design. The new XJ is attractive. However, no one can tell the new model from the old. That equals few new car sales.
#7283 of 24726 Re: Audi A8 [flyfisher1]
Jan 14, 2005 (6:33 pm)
Boy, you sure have an issue with the A8 don't you
What issue ? I simply provided a link and commented on hard facts. Can't handle facts ?
The problem with the LS is that it is an old man's car in looks and in performance
And by inference, the A8 and 7-series are for YOUNG people in looks and performance. That's why these cars are in high demand by the baby boomers who don't care to drive an old person's car like the LS ! Ooppsss.... The LS outsells the A8 and the 745/760 COMBINED. It must be that "car enthusiasts" are in such short supply otherwise the sales trend should be in the other direction, if your logic holds true.
Sarcasm aside, the simple fact is that car manufacturers are in the business to make money. The A8 and 7-series are NOT niche cars, but sell like one. If the trend continues, both BMW and VW/Audi would not be able to sustain the continued loss of market share by their premier sedan, and something will have to give. If the LS is outselling its competition COMBINED, it must be doing something right. Maybe it's time for BMW and Audi to *copy* Lexus' LS success formula. Would help their bottomline a great deal.