Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#7099 of 24726 Re: BMW fans [oac]
Dec 17, 2004 (6:17 am)
Only on Edmunds do we get squeaky clean examples of people having x year old cars with y miles and zero issues, not like that in real-life though.
Friends of the family has a 1994(maybe newer?) LS 400, well drives like a 10 year old car. Engine squeals/noise from the engine, rattles on the car etc. Other friend has a new LS430. Things are going awry that shouldn't go awry on a new car. Yet both of them think of their cars as reliable and give Lexus high marks. Sample size of 2 is absurd to make generalizations, but out in real-life cars do have issues.
#7100 of 24726 Real price...
Dec 17, 2004 (7:41 am)
kwi.. I recommend you try buying a consumers report car "kit" for your car. You can buy it online and get access to the information instantly. There you have ALL the pricing info for your region including holdback, etc. They give you a wholesale price to negotiate up from. Edmunds free info is okay but not as in-depth or detailed.
The only way I could see invoice plus 3K is if they have 3k of dealer installed options on all their 7 series... I doubt it.
#7101 of 24726 Re: BMW fans [kdshapiro]
Dec 17, 2004 (8:57 am)
That's why their is CR, JDP, etc... with thousands of data points from *real-life* owners. Minutia details about these cars reliability are generated from these surveys to determine rankings. I'd not take your 2-person example, nor Edmund's chest-thumping examples, as too much evidence to claim a car is more reliable than its competition. JD Powers, CR, and lots of auto magazines perform these tests and show without a doubt that when it comes to reliability, BMW and MB cars and trucks overall has more repairs / 100 cars or trucks than their Japanese peers such as Infiniti, Acura and Lexus.
Don't take my word for it, tho'.... I am just one owner with a single data point.
Dec 17, 2004 (9:39 am)
That does not sound like a dealer who wants to sell cars.
If you haven't already try an 05 Lexus LS430 with sport mode..I personally think it is a far more reliable car and even if you bought the ULTRA it would cost you less then $70,000....and you will have every goodie there is.
Dec 17, 2004 (9:47 am)
LS 430 does not rattle at any age (At least I have never seen one that does)...I have looked at many, driven many over the years (helping my kids and friends look for cars, I like it and they need the help)...They have been as old as 8 years...My current 01 ultra is just like the day it came off the dealers floor..
#7104 of 24726 Re: BMW fans [michael_mattox]
Dec 17, 2004 (10:58 am)
Understand your opinion. That's why I'm saying out in the world there are roads, potholes, deer and cars and they do not mix well together at the same time.
#7105 of 24726 Re: BMW fans [kdshapiro]
Dec 17, 2004 (11:05 am)
Like it or not - just face fact - This is a car the germans would love to be able to claim as theirs. They are not all perfect or near perfect but an extremely high percentage of them fall into those buckets. It's been that way for 14 years and counting now - since day one. When you get a huge snowstorm some areas get killed with a foot or more and some areas get less than an inch. The LS lives in the less than an inch area.
#7106 of 24726 Re: BMW fans [kdshapiro]
Dec 17, 2004 (11:59 am)
I would think that BMW and Merc fans would welcome these criticisms. The flaws of any specific study do not change the trend: On the whole the evidence seems clear that the great German marques are not keeping up with the reliability revolution brought on by Toyota/Honda or even keeping up with the trend towards improvement of Detroit's big three.
This can only force rethinking for the good. Merc, Audi, and BMW will not survive if the only buyers are those so enamored of performance and image that reliability and price are nearly irrelevant. Imagine how much worse and more expensive the Bimmers and Mercs would be if Acura, Lexus and Infiniti had never existed. I believe (and firmly hope as a Lexus buyer) that the Germans get their act together and really turn this around.
Dec 17, 2004 (12:46 pm)
This conversation makes it seem like BMW unreliability is something new. Just remember that some people are aware of unreliability and accept it as a trade-off for other redeeming qualities. This is what you happy campers do NOT seem to understand. Sit by the campfire and have fun. Others choose to explore the trails.
(Alright homies, let's not get nuts, just my 2 cents. Ljflx... woo-woo
#7108 of 24726 Re: BMW fans [jvcn]
Dec 17, 2004 (1:07 pm)
I don't think Mercedes prices have ever been affected by Acura, Lexus or Infiniti "competition." And that is part of the problem. Their unrealistic arrogance. But it is finally catching up to them and I for one couldn't be any happier.