Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#6423 of 24726 Re: ljflx [michael_mattox]
Jul 28, 2004 (9:57 pm)
Are you serious? For about the 10th time, in 1990 the R129 SL debuted and it remained basically the same car (with a few changes) until the spring of 2002 when the current SL came out. It doesn't matter which year SL you use, unlike the Allante which has to be a 1993 model that GM managed to get half-right in time for the lights to be turned off.
"The Mercedes weighed in at 4165............Allante 3766
" HP...315 and 347 ft. lbs...................295 and 290 ft. lbs.
"NOTE: The Allante power plant is pushing 400 lbs less.
NOTE MIKE: The 500SL was still faster than the Allante. Look up the issue in which Car and Driver tested both! Do you not understand that a car with more torque (you know the force that actually moves the car) can overcome a weight disadvantage? This is what torque is for. Something the Allante didn't need more of because of its bass-ackwards fwd V8 layout.
I also mentioned the 600SL. You don't in your response. Obviously you know that the 600SL would stomp the Allante.
Your JDP notes make no sense. Is the left side for Mercedes and right for Cadillac? Now tell me what the point of that is when the car was discontinued because it such a poorly engineered piece of junk.
To keep talking about trunk space in a roadster that was so flawed in it's basic engineering is really foolish. I have to get out and let the top up on a 60K lux-roadster, but I can carry my golf clubs. Do you know how ridiculous this sounds? Gee I have a 300hp V8 in time for the car to be canceled and all the previous years I had a feeble, wheezing 140-200hp V8. Nobody gave a lug nut about the Allante's trunk because it never sold in the numbers GM wanted nor did it match the 500SL in sales, a much more expensive car at that. You could have bought a Chrysler LeBaron back in the day or Chrysler TC if all you were concerned about is luggage space in a roadster.
Do you see where your replys are getting smaller and smaller because everything point you make doesn't hold water and you really can't dispute the fact:
1. The 500SL (alone) outsold the Allante. So much for that earlier sales point by you.
2. The 500SL and 600SL outperformed the Allante.
3. The Allante was discontinued due to slow sales.
4. The Allante had the most pitiful convertible top in the history of modern day lux-roadsters.
5. The SL outright shamed the Allante in engine design, top design, safety equimpment, build quality, etc. etc.
This is by far the most ridiculous comparision I've seen on this board and thus completely obliterates your credibility with me.
BTW, the Allante never beat the 500SL in any comparo that I've ever seen. The only comparo that the Allante won was with the 300SL, which it did so on performance, not design, quality, engineering or anything else relating to the car past the engine room.
What I find here is very hypocritical because if this had been a Mercedes that left the market in such a shameful disgrace like the Allante did you'd be harping about that for ever. Saying things like "the market has spoken" and what not, but for the Allante you're almost acting like it was some type of great car that didn't catch on with the public. The truth of the matter is that the public saw it for what it was..no competitor to the SL and a piece of ill-conceived junk. You never even drove the R129 SL (1990-2002) to know anything past trunk space and that you didn't fit into it. This is what you base your superiority argument on? Insert laughter.
Jul 28, 2004 (10:09 pm)
I have never heard anything about Porsche helping Lexus with the 2006 GS either, thats news to me. Would love to read about it. It may be true since Toyota did help Porsche restructure a few years back.
"What makes lexus such a great company is that they are willing to go and find the best in the world...they will take that suspension improve it here and there, make a 1000 small tweeks and by
the time it is done it will be reliable..they are not limited by silly little BMW made it issues.."
What??? I'm just dying to know what Lexus did with a BMW suspension design to improve it. Please tell. Have you ever looked under your LS and a 7-Series BMW? What in the world does suspension tuning have to do with reliability? BMW's have "unreliable" suspensions now?
I'm done with the perception, handling, and who bashes what stuff. I see it one way and you see it another. It goes both ways with all the brands on these boards.
Jul 29, 2004 (5:44 am)
If you only make 200 cars a year...Selling out your production line in not really relevent to this discussion. That said Lexus sells out a gigantic production line (compared to ferrari) with the acknowledged most reliable car in the world.
Bottom line 10s of 1000s of people buy Lexus ...just a very few buy Ferrari
Jul 29, 2004 (5:46 am)
Lets not play silly spinn games. I did not say they bought or used the BMW suspension...I indicated "If they did"
Jul 29, 2004 (5:56 am)
There you go again...Is the SL so lame a car you need to try and confuse the issue by jumping from model to model and year to year to make your points....I was very specific about sticking to a model 500sl and year 1993...and...The Allante of the same year.
You have done this over and over again and it just points out the weakness of your arguments....
You also throw in a lot of so called stats without showing the actual data...WHY IS THAT MERC?....Lets see the performance numbers (for the 1993 cars.) If you have them.
How many 500 SLs were were sold in the US in 1993...I gave you the number for Allante 6700....
Lets have some specifics for a change instead of your rambling and babbling out unsubstantuated figures.
ONCE AGAIN LETS STICK TO THE 1993 500SL (THE CAR YOU ORGINALLY BROUGHT UP IN THE MESSAGE I RESPONDED TO)
#6428 of 24726 Re: [michael_mattox]
Jul 29, 2004 (6:01 am)
True, but both the 7 and LS are mass market cars, with global sales of the 7 trailing slightly to the LS. Seems if the 7 were *that* bad, they'd sell zero. However, if reliability were the only factor, nobody except Honda/Toyota would sell a car. Certainly the Cayennes' issues would have killed Porsche.
Jul 29, 2004 (6:14 am)
to defend michael, where does he say the 7-series was *that* bad? huh, nowhere.
Here's just another example of " 'da syndrome"-somebody says nothing *that* bad about BMW yet it's taken as though that person said *that* bad.
#6430 of 24726 Re: [maxhonda99]
Jul 29, 2004 (8:54 am)
Huh! Where did I say he said it was that bad. I was replying to his post and in general, echoing certain sentiment that seems to be flying around.
The board needs some chillin' dude.
Jul 29, 2004 (9:25 am)
"True, but both the 7 and LS are mass market cars, with global sales of the 7 trailing slightly to the LS. Seems if the 7 were *that* bad, they'd sell zero. However, if reliability were the only factor, nobody except Honda/Toyota would sell a car. Certainly the Cayennes' issues would have killed Porsche. "
IN that post :"Seems if the 7 were *that* bad, they'd sell zero."
I don't see where mattox said the 7 was *that* bad in his previous posts.
#6432 of 24726 Re: [maxhonda99]
Jul 29, 2004 (9:35 am)
That's why the word that is in *'s. It's my interjection to a reply.