Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#6154 of 24723 Re: Another Example...... [michael_mattox
Jul 20, 2004 (10:17 pm)
Mike you're confused so keep thinking what you're thinking. If you think older Mercedes' weren't stylish then you'd be in minority in that thinking. Mercedes SL, and just about every 2-door they've ever made were handsome cars. Like I said before, you mentioning the past doesn't changes the fact the Lexus has a ridiculously styled hodgepodge group of cars that range from grown-up looking Civics (IS300) to discarded Italian design proposoals for a Jaguar (first GS) that was altered in Japan to only look worse for 1998 and then finally the love-child of a W140 S-Class and a Avalon, the LS430. There is nothing fashionable about any present Lexus no matter how many times you bring up past Mercedes. Mercedes' older designs like the W126 S-Class (1981-1991) was a classic. All Mercedes did was go from boxy and formal to sporty and swoopy, it isn't like they made butt-ugly cars like you know who does. Their design language is clear and present in everything they make and has only changed in becoming more modern. You know a Mercedes whether it is a 2 months old or 50 years old. Lexuses look like big Toyotas. Between the SC430 and Solara and LS430 and Avalon I think you need to concentrate their present styling and not Mercedes' past.
""First with the most" Actually I think to say Lexus is "second with the best" is accurate. Being First is a negative in many ways when a company rushes innovations into production just for the sake of saying they were first.
Back on that again I see. I've been waiting for over a year for you to list what Lexus came up after Mercedes did that Lexus perfected. I'm also still trying to find a Cadillac Alante that has a "shoulder harness" too.
"I say again...Mercedes once the greatest car in the World has slipped because they have favored in recent years Form over Function. They have favored "Get it first" rather then "Get it best"
And saying it 100 times doesn't make it true. I'm still waiting on you to give me an example of this Mike. If you think they didn't at the very least set out to make the best then there is no point in even talking about this. They "favored" something not working right. That is such bs. In what functional way are Mercedes' cars compromised because they are are too busy with styling? Are Mercedes' rear seats cramped due to swoopy styling, are they less-safe because of styling considerations? I'm seriously willing to listen to something factual about Mercedes being compromised or not functional because of their styling or some other frivilous approach they now have towards car design. I suspect this is yet another in a long line if unprovable ramblings from you on Mercedes. Innovations now styling is compromising the functionality of their cars? Ok, I'm reading.
Jul 21, 2004 (12:14 am)
Is Cadillac on the Map yet?
Jul 21, 2004 (12:28 am)
Yep they're on the map, but in where is the question.
The CTS-V while delivering the numbers hasn't proved to be the equal of the Germans in build or refinement. Axle hop problems in a 2004 performance car?
The STS I'm actually sort of impressed with. It seems, so far to be a very well thought out car, if a little pricey. Cadillac isn't using a cheaper price combined with an inferior car to lure customers anymore. They think they have a truly equal product and their pricing shows this. It will be interesting how many people pay 60K+ for a STS.
I personally don't care much for the new look as the old Cadillacs didn't have a styling problem to me, especially the 1998-2004 Seville. I think part of the reason the XLR hasn't sold well is because very few people want the jet fighter look when buying a 76k luxury-sport roadster. They seem to want the sensous and curvy look like the XK, or the formal and elegant look of the SL. The CTS' proportions are very correct, but all the harsh lines and sharp angles keep it from being "good looking" in my book. The STS looks much better at least in pics, I haven't seen it in person yet.
The STS-V and XLR-V with a projected 425hp will only get beat in the mags against the M5/E55 and SL55 AMG. As trivial as it may be, winning some of these comparos would go a long way towards renewing Cadillac's luster. The SRX is the only one that has really won anything so far. The CTS and XLR have been merely compeitive.
#6157 of 24723 Re: audibob [ljflx]
Jul 21, 2004 (6:24 am)
Go and drive an Audi then compare. I deal with Lexus on a daily basis. If they were in the same league, they would be priced comparably...unless you just happen to think they are the only company that does not want to charge the most the market will take?? Maybe we should put them incharge of national heathcare....
Jul 21, 2004 (6:46 am)
Another blocky butt with oversized lamps. The profile is stark and slabby. Also, I cand stand the top-heavy trapezoidal, overly wooden console.
However, the frond end is dead-nuts PERFECT. Look how the subtle bumper cuts and grille blend easily into the understated vertical crease which is the focal point. Nothing overpowers on the front... all elements work in perfect harmony to strike a noble chord. Notice how the features are finessed in comparison to the CTS. And it sure does review nicely against the 545 with performance.
Jeez, this car is so close with styling. I hope Cadillac sticks around with sport sedans. They really need to nail the recipe, perhaps a tall order for a car with a pure luxury following.
#6159 of 24723 Re: Guys Guys GUYS [quemfala]
Jul 21, 2004 (6:52 am)
Audi is recognized by both rivals and critiques as having the most inspiring and detailed interiors, and the most elegant and understated design, simple and clean, refined. Sorry its not "Boy Racer" enough.
Jul 21, 2004 (6:58 am)
I'll take an S4 wagon with 6-speed. There's a stealthy car that kicks some butt and is handsome. I think Audi has brass putting that baby on the table. I think if I could have only one car, I would consider it bigtime.
#6161 of 24723 Re: audibob [lexusguy]
Jul 21, 2004 (7:03 am)
You have shown that
1: You have not driven all the cars you speak about.
2: You do not understand the effect of the numbers you read about in the magazines you use for information.
There are some things that magazines do not comment on such as power transfer, horsepower lose through the drivetrain, and "Power at Wheel", "Torque at Wheel", etc.
A 3.0 or a 1.8t with a $500 APR chip will lay waste to an E320 or V6 Lexus.
Apparently some people feel they are educated by reading some books...
Maybe we need to only speak about cars we have actually driven and PUSHED TO THEIR LIMITS.
How do you communicate with a person that does not want to believe, will not look, and will not consider anything outside their experience?
Jul 21, 2004 (7:03 am)
Last I checked having the more expensive price does not automatically make a car, or any product for that matter, better.
Oh, by the way, my girlfriend's father is a car fanatic. He has owned just about every kind of car there is. A few years ago he bought an Audi S8...and kept it for a total of four months. He said it was the worst car he ever owned for a number of reasons (mostly mechanical). He has also owned a Mercedes SL600 and S-Class and currently drives a BMW 7 Series (all bought new) and says the Audi isn't even close to those two German brands.
I don't care what league the A8 is in, the fact is they can barely give them away compared to the S/7/LS.
#6163 of 24723 Re: Audibob [designman]
Jul 21, 2004 (7:03 am)