Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#5904 of 24726 Re: maxhonda99 [maxhonda99]
Jul 14, 2004 (8:40 pm)
I do agree that there aren't vast differences between these cars, but they do exists. If you drove a 2001 740i Sport back to back with a 2001-2003 LS430 you would feel a much bigger difference. The Lexus simply didn't have the body control or straight line stability or agility of the BMW. I haven't driven the 2004 LS430, but I've driven the previous 2001 model a few times now, and the previous 740i a lot.
#5905 of 24726 Re: maxhonda99 [ljflx]
Jul 14, 2004 (8:43 pm)
"merc1 - couldn't agree with you more on the MB and Rolls analogy. MB is a reliability issue and that's all. They are still in the lead or very near the top in advancing the industry, whereas Rolls went into a rip van winkle sleepfest. In fact the latter - trying to maintain that #1 position in development - is part of the cause of their reliability problems. Another part may simply be systematic to all of europe. I have seen some consulting reports that simply state the current group of European workers (in all industries) are simply not up to snuff with the people they are replacing."
As almost always...well put, and of course I agree. There is a artist sketch of the 2006 CL at germancarfans.com. Unlike the next S-Class, the next CL will be a stunner if they come anywhere close to this sketch.
"merc1 - You need to get Mercedes back into this. Lexus vs. BMW can't hold a candle to Lexus vs. Mercedes. There's not enough cross-shoppers and the two brands - as you stated so well -
play to different crowds."
Nope, I can't help livinbmw with the points he has chosen to argue with, and I don't think we need to go back over Mercedes vs Lexus. I think everyone knows where I, you, and everyone else stands on that one. I tried to tell everyone that the BMW vs Lexus thing isn't really comparable past a few common luxury car points, like 70 posts ago. I find this debate to be really boring to, BMW and Lexus are opposites in too many areas to give the debate some legs. BMW fans will never, ever accept a LS430 type car, and vice versa. Lexus long ago aligned itself much closer to Mercedes' way of thinking, engineering etc. etc. not BMW's.
Now if the Q45 had the following of the LS430 then you'd have a more even matched debate because Infiniti is really the one after BMW in the sport arena and they did bill the Q45 as a sporty sedan much like the 7-Series, but the car has been a huge flop so there aren't any owners around to take up the debate.
Like I've stated long ago, BMW really hasn't had to worry about Lexus nearly as much as Mercedes has had to because of their sport bent. The Lexus vehicles that were aimed in BMW's direction, the GS and IS just didn't make a dent and BMW has Acura and more importantly Infiniti to worry about. Will this list include Lexus when the new GS and much more importantly the next IS comes out? We'll see. LS430 vs 745i, forget it. I personally would take a S500, A8L, or XJR over both of them.
#5906 of 24726 Re: Another Example...... [michael_mattox]
Jul 14, 2004 (8:50 pm)
You missed the point again Mike. If you read my post carefully you'd see where I wasn't trying to disprove your points about the LS vs the 7-Series. My point was that different people look for different things a car and LS owners criteria isn't etched in stone as to what everyone should look for in a luxury car. I personally find a debate about a LS430 and a 745i to be silly because the two cars are opposites in so many ways. Neither company is aiming for exact same result. That was my point.
Reply to your second post:
You did mention style. Please try to stay with the current program. Who cares what Mercedes' looked like in the past, you're the one that said that Lexus is overtaking them in style, today, that being so ridiculous to the point you have to shade the issue by pointing out what Mercedes used to look like. Mercedes' styling stomps a mutthole Lexus'.
Please tell me how Mercedes better looking styling has compromised the funtion of their cars. I'll be eargerly awaiting something fact based in your answer. Styling has nothing to do with reliability or a lack thereof. Mercedes' cars haven't been compromised in qualty because of styling, such a statement is absurd. Say cost-cutting, Chrysler, too many models, but styling as the cause of their problems...please.
#5908 of 24726 So what happened with Mercedes?
Jul 14, 2004 (9:22 pm)
I think its pretty simple ... a change in who has control of design.
Although I don't know this is correct for sure, but my impression of Mercedes decades ago was a company with direction coming from engineers.
Their rules were simple: "design the best car you can, we'll figure out what it costs to build, and price it accordingly to allow some profits" and the engineers got to do what they do best.
Now, I think MB have gone the way of other big manufacturers and the bean counters have taken over. Instead of building the best, the engineers are likely told "make it the best, but keep the price under $x" so now the engineers are doing what they're not best at: accounting.
I own a successful engineering/manufacturing firm, and in engineering you have 3 options:
- high quality
- high performance
- low cost
and you can pick any combination of 1 or 2 features, but not all 3 at once.
Once the bean counters start pushing costs down, something has to give. And its not just Mercedes. How many Toyota owners want their old Camry back after living with the new model a few thousand miles? What's up with the VW ignition coils? How come the power locks don't work on your Subaru? BMW's i-Drive? And those are the GOOD brands!
Its an industry-wide problem, and I believe the blame lies at the top.
But if they suddenly built better cars and priced them accordingly (higher), would anyone buy them? (especially with the taxation rules favoring leases for expensive vehicles)......
I don't know what the solution is. Does anybody?
Jul 14, 2004 (9:23 pm)
"I find the anti Lexus sentiment comes purely from German fans. I've never had a Jaguar fan
comment negatively on my car. Reading some of the blurbs on the web seems to confirm this. Do we have to get Dr. Phil here to find out the roots of this hostility towards each other?"
You're kidding again right? There are so many answers for this, but I'll keep it short. The two brands are compared the most because Lexus is Mercedes biggest follower, no other brand in the history of the luxury car market has ape'd so many things from another. A LS430 doesn't look like a Jaguar, and Lexus buyers rarely mention Jaguar. As far as BMW is concerned I'm not sure where exactly the dislike comes from, my guess would be the more often than not when Lexi owners try to put over their criteria of what a luxury car should be and it conflicts with what a BMW fan thinks it should be.
That sales hype from certain posters would irkel anyone when you read something so incorrect and biased. I dare a Lexi post some of that sales mess on a Cadillac board, you'd get an even bigger rise there.
#5910 of 24726 dieselbreath
Jul 14, 2004 (9:35 pm)
That is exactly what happened! The solution is to go back to the old way of producing cars, with quality being the #1 priority because Mercedes hasn't yet lost the ability to ask higher-than-the-competition prices for their cars. If they ever lose this status they'll be in even more trouble.
In the past Mercedes prices weren't even an issue to most who wanted one because for the most part you could see and feel where the money went. Now this infatuation with electronics has eaten away the budget for other traditional Mercedes virtues, while draining more $$ out the back door to fix all of it when it goes bad. Chrysler doesn't help the situation, but there seems to be some real progress there in quality and product.
I personally want Mercedes to build the best car, forget being #1 in sales, just build the best car and price it somewhat along the lines of the competition and see what happens. I think people will pay more if they see they're getting more. It has worked for them all this time.
Mercedes already sells and builds the greatest number of highest-priced, mass-market cars in the world now. Everyone one of them should be a winner like the basic SL500, E-Class or CL. I'm not sure how much S-Class you can build into a C-Class though. Forget trying to outsport BMW at that level, build a mini S-Class.
Jul 14, 2004 (9:48 pm)
"It's a little boring in a sense to say the top entry level luxury car is the 3 series, the top sport coupe is the M3, the top luxury sedan is the 5, the top sport sedan is the M5 and on and on....."
OMG, you are so right! Theres a giant conspiracy. All of the car mag editors have gotten together and said, you know guys, every single model BMW makes is the best car in the world. Mine ran into a burning building and saved a puppy. We cant possibly expect to sell magazines if the 10 Best list is 10 BMWs, can we? So heres what we do. Lets make up faults about BMW, and have all of their new cars lose a bunch of comparison tests. Do you actually listen to your own thoughts?
Quemfala, what looks bad to you looks good to me. I think the FX trounces the X5, ML, Toureg, and Cayenne with its French influenced style. The ML looks like a minivan, and the Cayenne looks like a 911 that ate one too many Christmas hams. Regardless of your opinions on its lines, you cant deny the ponies for dollars are like nothing else.
#5912 of 24726 designman
Jul 14, 2004 (10:47 pm)
MERCENARY TO FIGHT LEXUS CROWD
Must have BS in JDP and CR Statistics
Salary commensurate with experience
Hilarious.....I didn't even see that during my first read through of today's posts.
#5913 of 24726 Why BMW fans dislike Lexus
Jul 15, 2004 (3:29 am)
"As far as BMW is concerned I'm not sure where exactly the dislike comes from…"
Merc… this is it in a nutshell… you just can't ride around in an LS with the windows down, blasting the Stones, Aerosmith and Lynyrd Skynyrd.
C'mon Lexus guys, admit it, you have every Sinatra CD known to man… and let me guess… you think the Nelson Riddle arrangements are the best. Here's a statistic for you… Lexus owners have the biggest percentage of Pavarotti fans who don't know squat about opera. Just kiddin' on that one… had to get Ljflx back for comparing me to Al Michaels… I was thinking more like iMan or Letterman. Will have to work on it.