Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#5840 of 24723 Lexus and BMW
Jul 13, 2004 (11:34 pm)
Can a Mercedes "fanatic" say something here? For the record I like Mercedes, Audi and BMW in that order. BMW used to be my #2 car.
I'm reading this debate and it is even more pointless than the Lexus vs. Mercedes debate. Why you ask? Because BMWs aren't about what Lexus are about and vice versa.
A BMW person mentions sturdiness, which I define as solidity and the way the car feels driving down a bumpy road and/or lack of body/chassis flex when you pull out of the driveway that has the extreme slant or dip.....the Lexi respond with "a 1996 LS400 was found to be more reliable than a new 7-Series". Do you all not see where these two statments or points aren't even close to being related. A car can be "sturdy" or sturdily built physically, doesn't mean it is reliable. BMW and Lexus two polar opposites. No need for debate.
Audis have a spectacular "build" but they are the least reliable of the German luxury brands.
I read above the 7-Series sales are "drying up" in its second year of product. Wrong and mostly hype. The actual numbers:
June 2004/YTD 2004/June 2003/YTD 2003 - 1628/8776/1577/9935
While they are down 1159 units YTD 2004 compared to 2003, they did sell more in June of 2004 than they did in June 2003, I'd hardly call this "drying up" and the 7-Series is in its third year of product, not its second.
Big difference between a "driving car" and a "driver's car", a Lexus can be whatever you want to call it like former, but the latter it isn't.
#5841 of 24723 Re: kdshapiro [lexusguy]
Jul 13, 2004 (11:46 pm)
First of all, personal attacks are not necessary.
I don't give a hoot about the Nav, that has nothing to do with 0-60, braking, or road feel. I did say that with i-drive, perception seems to be reality, but I personally don't have a problem with it.
I'm not sure what the point of your post is. To me the 7-series is the better vehicle in it's class. I like the looks better, I like the ride better, I like the interior better. Maybe the Ultra has more supple leather, but so what? The 7 sure isn't perfect, but neither is the LS. A number of different factors go into picking a car, but they are different for each of us. But I for one, don't want an Avalon on steriods, but I recognize some do.
#5842 of 24723 Another Example......
Jul 13, 2004 (11:51 pm)
BMW owner says:
"the seven series is superior inside and out to lexus"
Lexus owner ask the following in their rebuttal regarding the 7-Series vs the LS430:
Does it have superior Dependability?
No the 7-Series doesn't, but I don't think anyone said it did. The comment about "inside and out" as most people would read it relates to design, not the always talked about reliability surveys.
Nope. What about handling though? See how one group prioritizes the opposite quality in their luxury mount? BMW folk regard Lexi as riding like their not even touching the road with a corresponding lack of handling. Apples to Oranges.
Highly debatable, and this depends on what the person looks at when judging comfort. Ride, quietness, seats etc. etc. all come into play here. For some the BMW will be a hard-riding noisy car, and the Lexus like riding in an Amana, Apples to Oranges here.
Superior Price (in terms of a lower price not higher)
Superior sound system
Superior Nav system
I'm yawning at these three sorry.
Superior Emissions (in terms of Lower emissions)
What? This is noticeable to a buyer in what way? Does anyone really care either way? Neither car is a smoger.
Superior safety systems
Nope, the Lexus has a Mercedes style Pre-Safe system so Lexus would appear to be more advanced here. Not sure if that makes the LS superior overall in safety though, haven't seen the crash stuff on either. There are a lot of other factors here.
Is it more quiet.
Nope the 7 isn't, but it isn't a noise box either like some Lexus fans would lead you to believe it is.
Does it have a superior dealer and service network
What the heck does this have to do with someone saying the 7-Series is superior inside and out. This is a classic Lexi response, only the charts, graphs and customer service stuff is truly important.
My point is that a BMW and Lexus debate at the 7-Series/LS level is pointless because the two cars practically bracket the segment in philosophy.
Jul 14, 2004 (12:44 am)
People I talk to, don't fault the 7 series mechanically, they fault the i-drive.
It's not just that. i-drive has also contributed to making the 7 series interior an ergonomic mess, mainly because the shifter is right next to the window wiper shaft.
Why is the shifter in such an awkward position? Because they had to make room for the i-drive.
Aside from i-drive, weird interior ergonomics and the nasty Bangle butt, I prefer the 7-series to the LS.
IMO the key to Lexus's success is that they do a few boring things really well (reliability, interior luxury and ergonomics) and don't screw anything up badly. The LS430 is the greatest boring car ever made, no doubt.
Meanwhile, BMW makes what should be a superior car but then cripples it with odd engineering and design decisions.
#5844 of 24723 Re: Not Hardly... [michael_mattox]
Jul 14, 2004 (1:06 am)
Yes there is a similar situation going on now......but the biggest difference between Rolls and
Mercedes and Mercedes and Lexus is that Mercedes isn't an outdated, poorly engineered car like
Rollers were back then. Rollers lacked basic luxury car equipment like stability control, side airbags
and HID lights...the list goes on. They didn't even get these things until 1998, when Mercedes had
them at least 8-10 years prior. Mercedes might have a reliability problem, but they haven't
compromised their other core strengths in the least, but you make a valid obeservation. The
perception has changed in the minds of people who own Lexuses, but overall in this country and
worldwide Mercedes is far from finished and they still have the prestige and clout to go with that
position. Secondly, unlike Rolls-Royces up until 1998 or so, Mercedes still builds at lease some segment
leading cars and no amount of reliability praise will overcome that when it comes to the SL, CL and
upper S-Class models. Rolls didn't have anything but their rep, Mercedes still has the tech, engineering, and performance to back up the rep, only their reliability and early build on certain models faultered. Big difference from Rolls whose whole lineup was completely outdated.
And nobody sighted would even think Lexus has even begun to overtake Mercedes in style, that is completely nuts. There isn't a truly stylish Lexus made, and just about everything Mercedes is dripping style, if nothing else in the typical Lexi's mind. Lexus has the dullest, most boringly styled group of cars in the industry!
#5845 of 24723 Re: [sv7887]
Jul 14, 2004 (1:09 am)
" If Lexus cars are so boring, then why would anyone buy them? "
You are kidding right? Same reason why people buy every other boring car you see on the road. Reliability, comfort, practicality, room, etc. etc. the list goes on and on........none of this means that the car isn't boring or that it is particularly exciting. SUVs are the most non-fun things you can drive and people love them. Please don't try to imply that great sales mean that Lexi aren't boring.
"BMW wasn't considered a top tier brand until the 7 Series arrived.
Huh? You'll have to explain that one. FYI, the "7-Series" has been around since 1977.
Please tell me when BMW as considered a 2nd tier brand, or not up to Lexus. The 5-Series alone put them, product/price/perception wise, higher than any of the Japanese brands until the LS430 went upmarket for 2001, only to meet the 7-Series which has been there for years.
Jul 14, 2004 (5:29 am)
"My contention is not that Lexus has poor body rigidity or bad brakes. Only that the BMW is better. It's a better driving car. And, it leads the luxury segment in sales."
What does that have to do with durability, which you say is soo superior in a BMW?
Jul 14, 2004 (5:36 am)
I think when sv7887 said "BMW wasn't considered a top tier brand until the 7 Series arrived." he meant when the redesigned 7-series came out in the late 80s. The 7-series before that was no competition to the S-class, which always had V8 offerings alongside 6-cylinders. The 7-series until the 90s only had a 6 and the 7-series of the early 80's was not playing in anywhere near the same ballpark as the Benz S-class.
Jul 14, 2004 (5:40 am)
And about this ridiculous BMW vs. lexus thing. You know(and so does everyone else) that in terms of ride, handling, the S-class, 7-series, A8, Jag XJ8, LS430 are all very similar. I mean they all handle really well for their size and all stop well, and all ride well, and all are extremely quiet. The difference's are small, such as the LS430 handles a bit worse and rides a bit better and the 745i handles a bit better and rides a bit worse.
As for livinbmw, I believe as someone else pointed out before, he is just simply here to light a fire! Maybe he's unemployed and has nothing better to do.
#5849 of 24723 maxhonda99
Jul 14, 2004 (5:46 am)
I'll go for that about the 7-Series vs the S-Class of that time period. BMW didn't really step up to the plate until 1988 when they introduced the V12 750iL.
I have to disagree slightly with the notion that the differences aren't that much between these cars. On driving feel alone the BMW 7-Series is way different from the LS430. You're right, all the cars at this level do stop, go, ride and handle pretty well and some are better than others in certain areas here, but it is the way they go about doing these things combined with those slight differences in ride, handling etc. etc. that make a BMW a BMW and a Lexus a Lexus.
In my personal experience with both, there are things I did while driving a 745i Sport I wouldn't dare attempt with a 2001-2003 LS430, not that the average buyer drives like I drove those cars on that particular day.