Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Jul 13, 2004 (3:29 pm)
Perhaps you've ignored the SUV craze that has all manufacturers running to take advantage of..Even Porsche of all nameplates has a SUV..Lexus would have to be stupid not to capitalize on the market. I still own a 1992 LS400 and have experienced few issues with the car..
As for calling the LS an overpriced Camry..The LS was designed specifically for the US market and released later in Japan..It took 6 yrs and $1 Billion to develop that car. (Did any other Lexus owner get that email?) That car singlehandedly changed the dynamics of the whole Luxury car industry.
As for Handling, I'd agree the BMW turns better, but I haven't driven a new 18" LS..But the braking stats and acceleration stats are comparable if not better. I know Lexus cars offer a quieter and more comfortable ride. If Lexus cars are so boring, then why would anyone buy them? You ought to consider this before you make such blanket judgements.
What exactly is a driving car? IMO an ideal driving car is one that caters to the consumer's need. A Lexus does that nearly perfectly..The majority of buyers aren't going to race them on the autobahn..For practical daily driving, it doesn't get better than Lexus.
(Designman, it doesn't help the pitcher when they're facing guys like Manny Ramirez.Lol)
#5834 of 24726 designman
Jul 13, 2004 (4:13 pm)
The real funny part of all this is the labels people put on things. BMW can make a car every bit as quiet and great riding as an LS430 tomorrow if it chose to. It's not its mantra so it's not going to happen. Similarly Lexus can do the same thing the other way around if it wanted to. It will tweak cars like the LS430 to more handling in the future (and maybe even offer a true sport version) but it will always err on the side of quietness and spectacular ride. That's its mantra and that is what it's customers want. Lexus has toyed with handling so far with the IS and people I know who have that car say it outhandles a 3-series. But the 3-series is real adept anyway and a much better looking car. Lexus didn't get it right all the way around and made the interior too cheap. I am curious to see what they do with the next GS. Supposedly your favorite company - Porsche - defined its driving dynamics. If I were Lexus I would have aimed more at the E-class than the 5-series. But BMW is going to be quite vulnerable with that new 5-series design in the next few years and there are several Japanese cars gunning for them now.
The Boxster is every bit a Porsche to me and a great looking car. If I was 20 years younger I'd buy it.
SV7887 - perfectly stated.
#5836 of 24726 Re: [michael_mattox]
Jul 13, 2004 (5:19 pm)
Actually yes to all for the 7. Having spent oodles of time in both recently, the 7 leads in the subjective areas IMO of looks/interior, and the subjective areas of performance. Harsh ride for some is soft ride to others. The LS430 has been described as floaty, if that is what you like.
Jul 13, 2004 (6:18 pm)
The driving dynamics of the 7 and LS are debatable, but if you honestly think iDrive is better for Navigation than the Lexus system, there is something terribly wrong with you. Lexus' system is the best in the industry, with Acura a close second. Lexus has been offering touch screen, DVD based Navigation systems since '98. What did BMW have in 98? Nothing. Livinbmw is obviously so blindly devoted to BMW as the do-no-wrong, greatest fluffy cloud pink bunnies and flowers company in the world that there is no real point in serious debate. I will admit Lexus is not strong in certain areas, but things like quality of materials, and electronics they crush BMW. If you think EVERY car and EVERY thing BMW does is faultless, your off in la la land.
#5840 of 24726 Lexus and BMW
Jul 13, 2004 (10:34 pm)
Can a Mercedes "fanatic" say something here? For the record I like Mercedes, Audi and BMW in that order. BMW used to be my #2 car.
I'm reading this debate and it is even more pointless than the Lexus vs. Mercedes debate. Why you ask? Because BMWs aren't about what Lexus are about and vice versa.
A BMW person mentions sturdiness, which I define as solidity and the way the car feels driving down a bumpy road and/or lack of body/chassis flex when you pull out of the driveway that has the extreme slant or dip.....the Lexi respond with "a 1996 LS400 was found to be more reliable than a new 7-Series". Do you all not see where these two statments or points aren't even close to being related. A car can be "sturdy" or sturdily built physically, doesn't mean it is reliable. BMW and Lexus two polar opposites. No need for debate.
Audis have a spectacular "build" but they are the least reliable of the German luxury brands.
I read above the 7-Series sales are "drying up" in its second year of product. Wrong and mostly hype. The actual numbers:
June 2004/YTD 2004/June 2003/YTD 2003 - 1628/8776/1577/9935
While they are down 1159 units YTD 2004 compared to 2003, they did sell more in June of 2004 than they did in June 2003, I'd hardly call this "drying up" and the 7-Series is in its third year of product, not its second.
Big difference between a "driving car" and a "driver's car", a Lexus can be whatever you want to call it like former, but the latter it isn't.
#5841 of 24726 Re: kdshapiro [lexusguy]
Jul 13, 2004 (10:46 pm)
First of all, personal attacks are not necessary.
I don't give a hoot about the Nav, that has nothing to do with 0-60, braking, or road feel. I did say that with i-drive, perception seems to be reality, but I personally don't have a problem with it.
I'm not sure what the point of your post is. To me the 7-series is the better vehicle in it's class. I like the looks better, I like the ride better, I like the interior better. Maybe the Ultra has more supple leather, but so what? The 7 sure isn't perfect, but neither is the LS. A number of different factors go into picking a car, but they are different for each of us. But I for one, don't want an Avalon on steriods, but I recognize some do.
#5842 of 24726 Another Example......
Jul 13, 2004 (10:51 pm)
BMW owner says:
"the seven series is superior inside and out to lexus"
Lexus owner ask the following in their rebuttal regarding the 7-Series vs the LS430:
Does it have superior Dependability?
No the 7-Series doesn't, but I don't think anyone said it did. The comment about "inside and out" as most people would read it relates to design, not the always talked about reliability surveys.
Nope. What about handling though? See how one group prioritizes the opposite quality in their luxury mount? BMW folk regard Lexi as riding like their not even touching the road with a corresponding lack of handling. Apples to Oranges.
Highly debatable, and this depends on what the person looks at when judging comfort. Ride, quietness, seats etc. etc. all come into play here. For some the BMW will be a hard-riding noisy car, and the Lexus like riding in an Amana, Apples to Oranges here.
Superior Price (in terms of a lower price not higher)
Superior sound system
Superior Nav system
I'm yawning at these three sorry.
Superior Emissions (in terms of Lower emissions)
What? This is noticeable to a buyer in what way? Does anyone really care either way? Neither car is a smoger.
Superior safety systems
Nope, the Lexus has a Mercedes style Pre-Safe system so Lexus would appear to be more advanced here. Not sure if that makes the LS superior overall in safety though, haven't seen the crash stuff on either. There are a lot of other factors here.
Is it more quiet.
Nope the 7 isn't, but it isn't a noise box either like some Lexus fans would lead you to believe it is.
Does it have a superior dealer and service network
What the heck does this have to do with someone saying the 7-Series is superior inside and out. This is a classic Lexi response, only the charts, graphs and customer service stuff is truly important.
My point is that a BMW and Lexus debate at the 7-Series/LS level is pointless because the two cars practically bracket the segment in philosophy.