Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Jul 13, 2004 (12:15 pm)
You're quite right about the Military's GPS systems..It was built in the old Cold War days. The Soviets had a similiar system and the Europeans are planning one as well. This is probably the one innovation I can appreciate.
BMW wasn't considered a top tier brand until the 7 Series arrived. This has been discussed only a few posts ago..You've simply ignored the Success of the LS series in your discussion..This car consistently beats its' competition in every objective survey. Sturdiness? Please..A SIX year old LS400 was proven to be more reliable than a NEW 7 Series..When I bought my LS in 1992 it was ranked as the quietest car in the world. (I believe it was later supplanted by the A8..Not sure what the current ranking is..) Which leads me to ask..Have you ever driven a LS?
There are a library full of statistics to prove Lexus builds the most reliable car out there. I'll concede the handling point, as Lexus doesn't cater to that segement.
The RX series has established the smaller Luxury SUV..It was really the first SUV to drive more like a car..It's a best seller b/c of it's practicality. Lexus has done a good job of catering to the practical consumer needs. I think the release of the RX400H is a clear indicator of how Toyota spends it's R&D money rather than some overcomplicated iDrive system.
Toyota is currently one of the most profitable automakers out there..If BMW was so "upmarket" please explain the presence of a 1 Series and X3?
#5807 of 24723 Re: livinbmw [livinbmw]
Jul 13, 2004 (12:21 pm)
well, as I pointed out before the cheapest rung BMW the 3-series brings in over 50% of BMW sales. That must mean "To have that vehicle as the anchor of their sales volume could mean that the brand is not having the over-all appeal that one might associate with a luxury buyer."
#5808 of 24723 Re: livinbmw [livinbmw]
Jul 13, 2004 (12:22 pm)
Also, have you noticed how the LS430 outsells the entire 7-series range?
#5809 of 24723 Re: livinbmw [livinbmw]
Jul 13, 2004 (12:27 pm)
"I can't recall anyone ever claiming that any lexus has superior body rigidity or quietness compared to a BMW..... "
Have you ever seen anyone claim a Lexus isn't sturdy?
Look at the safety statistics, the long term durability of the body and associated hardware. Wow! the Lexus family sure seems sturdy from everything I have read.
And the quietness part? Gimme a break. We all know who makes quieter cars.
"True, the RX does not have a 3rd rear seat, but it's a chick car and a clumsy handler. It's like a fancy livingroom on wheels."
Wow! It's amazing how many men I see driving a RX330! They must really be women putting on a costume while driving the RX.
"Chick car". Did you forget something? Last time I rememeber the 3-series is a pretty big chick car.
Jul 13, 2004 (12:29 pm)
Oh, yeah. I've driven the LS. In fact, I spent quite a bit of my early career with Toyota and I appreciate what they do as a company, for sure. Reliability has nothing to do with sturdiness in the sense that I'm relating to. If that were the case than we'd rank the Corolla number one.
Conceding the handling point is a HUGE concession. Then, you're saying better braking, steering, control, acceleration..........I'd contend that this is what driving is all about. Vehicles are for driving and if the BMW was that unreliable than they wouldn't compete at all much less be the top selling luxury make in the world.
Jul 13, 2004 (12:58 pm)
The LS is an upscale Camry. The 7 is not an upscale 3 series. And things do go wrong and fall apart on these cars. Same as BMW. I'm not quite sure it matters, if the electric motor in the LS seats fail vs the electric motor in the sunroof on the 7. Same diff as far as I'm concerned. The wood for the base model LS is ugly. I find the front seats uncomfortable.
They may have less defects and maybe a boring car is what people want at the $70K price point, but the 7 series will trounce the LS, if BMW addresses the issues. People I talk to, don't fault the 7 series mechanically, they fault the i-drive.
Jul 13, 2004 (1:02 pm)
"Reliability has nothing to do with sturdiness in the sense that I'm relating to. If that were the case than we'd rank the Corolla number one. "
Then what are you relating to?
-Body rigidity? Well, Lexus ranks right up there with Mercedes & BMW in safety ratings. Safety ratings are obviously a testement to body rigidity. Also, I have a uncle that owns both a ES300 with 130K miles and a 2000 LS400. The ES300 is still flex free and suspension soaks up bumps as well as day 1, not to mention steering & brakes operate flawlessly. Sure seems the body is still pretty tight to me after all these miles. The LS400, built like a tank, no flexing, even over the most potholed roads, can't hear any squeaks, rattles from anywhere. Is that sturdiness?
How about how the hardware holdsup? 130K miles & all windows are original, all still work. In fact, everything in the car is still original and everything still works as good as when new.
"Then, you're saying better braking, steering, control, acceleration.........."
Check the stats buddy. The GS brakes better than the 5-series. the LS430 brakes better than the 7-series. The IS300 brakes better than the 3-series. Acceleration? Isn't the GS430 on par with a 540i? Or the LS430 quicker than the 745i/IL?
"Vehicles are for driving". So than shouldn't everyone be driving a BMW? How is the RX330 squashing the X3&X5 combined? How is the ES330 outselling the 3-series sedan line-up? Or the LS430 outselling the 7-series by about a 2 to 1 margin? Huh...wait I can answer that. Not everyone has handling as their #1 priority!
Jul 13, 2004 (1:04 pm)
"but the 7 series will trounce the LS, if BMW addresses the issues."
And what would happen if Lexus addresses the few issues that they do have?
#5814 of 24723 Re: [maxhonda99]
Jul 13, 2004 (1:05 pm)
"Check the stats buddy. The GS brakes better than the 5-series. the LS430 brakes better than the 7-series. The IS300 brakes better than the 3-series. Acceleration? Isn't the GS430 on par with a 540i? Or the LS430 quicker than the 745i/IL?"
No according to recent comparisions, the 7 series is the better handler, better accelerator, better braker and gets better gas mileage.
Jul 13, 2004 (1:13 pm)
The last comparo I read had the LS430 with slightly better braking and I think about the same acceleration time. Gas mileage? You know how accurate EPA figures are. Also, the BMW 745i is 18/26 vs. 18/25. wow! big difference. Thanks for the correction!