Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Feb 14, 2001 (4:06 pm)
Did I ever say that the DTS is categorized in the same field as the rest? No, so don't you dare go off on a tantrum. I said that I think the DTS has about as much driving excitement as the Lexus. And I would rather spend my money on that if I was going to buy a luxo-cruiser, which is simply what the LS is.
On the fact that the automotive world says that the Lexus is at or beyond the rest, that is pure crap. Edmunds own review said that for a Lexus, it is exremely sporty, but it still cannot compare with the Mercedes and BMW for driving excitement. And that is my focus- the Lexus is not a drivers car like the others. I ask you to find me a piece of writing by someone who has half a brain that says the Lexus will be more fun to drive than a BMW. Ha!
I would rather spend the extra $10,000 to get some excitement out of my vehicle. In my eyes, it is not a better value because it puts the driver in complete isolation from the world. Yes, it is extremely quiet, like a vault, but I would like to hear what BMW has done with my V12 under hard acceleration.
I do not dispute that the Lexus has all the bells and whistles that the rest have- hell that's what the Japanese are known for. I am simply stating that in the styling and engineering, they have copied the rest yet again, mostly Mercedes.
As for your comment about being informed- I am a true car enthusiast who will read respectable publications such as R&T, Automobile, CAR and a battery of others. You americans think that Motor Trend and Car and Driver count for a lot. The rest of the world thinks that most of the american publications are so yankee biased, and only care about SUV's and big american V8's.
Whatever choice someone wants to make, is their own business. This message board is for discussion, and that is purely what I am doing. I want to seek the opinions of others, and maybe dispute them. I am not mounting personal attacks on anyone, as you are FLINT350.
Good luck with your LS430, maybe someday it will be called the "greatest car in it's class in 2001", but I doubt that!!!
#581 of 24726 live chat please
Feb 14, 2001 (5:23 pm)
Webmaster- I would love to have a live chat about this topic. I see that the Mercedes S-Class board has a weekly chat, so I would like one here. If there already is one, then someone please tell me. I would like to meet, figuratively speaking, the people I spar with on a regular bases. Thanks
#583 of 24726 arcoates; merc1
Feb 14, 2001 (6:25 pm)
Arcoates - you've lost it - give it a break. You're in way over your head here. Chill out.
Merc1 - Of course Daimler took over Chrysler. But in acquisitions the actual owner is set up for legal and tax purposes. Do you think they are going to look for synergies and operationally consolidate Chrysler anywhere but in the auto group? Heavy equipment division - maybe? - comeon now. In my company some of the CEO's would fall off their chairs if they knew who legally owned their companies or divisions.
As for the next Lexus LS modification you can bet your house on a LS500. In an article somewhere - not Edmunds - it mentioned that Lexus was toying with a V-12 for this model year but dropped it at the eleventh hour - so that's inevitabe too and it may come sooner than anyone thinks. They'll never make the equivalent of an S-55 or an AMG but not for the reasons you'd like to think. No one makes meaningful money on limited production/special edition/custom products in any business. They are usually loss leaders and CFO's cut them out the moment business goes south.
One last thing - Toyota's market cap is $128BLN vs. $51bln for Daimler. It also has $12bln. more cash and $20bln less debt. I wouldn't doubt its wherewithall and I'm sure MB is smarter than you about them. They are the 800lb gorilla here.
Feb 14, 2001 (7:02 pm)
I resent that comment- why have I lost it, because I choose to voice my opinion? Yes, I agree that I may be a little forceful sometimes, and people may take offence, but that's part of my intention.
I am very passionate about cars, and enjoy a heated discussion. I am pro-euro- no doubt about it. But I have not "lost it". I haven't called anyone stupid for buying something Japanese, or that they are complete hunks of crap. I have said everything but!
And you are quite mistaken about being "in way over my head". There is a collection of people, includig merc1 by the sounds of it that agree that the german cars are best in class. I think that most of the professional automotive community would agree- that is what I have based my opinions on- by reading about the different choices and making the tough decision of what is best!
I am sorry if I have offended anyone. It is not my intention. In my effort to create heated discussion, it may have come out that I want to condemn those who favour the japanese cars. I hope to converse about these issues in the future with all of you- you are knowledgable and good to talk, and sometimes fight with.
#585 of 24726 read post 576 by bwh
Feb 14, 2001 (7:42 pm)
That's a person who writes and thinks sensibly and that's what car selection at this level is all about. Each car serves a different niche and each one serves that niche better than the other. Your comments are all over the map. Go back and read them objectively and you'll see what I and I'm sure others here see. Merc1 loves his S-class cars too but his/her comments are quite sensible. He/She was trying to make you think more clearly with a comment earlier today.
Relax and enjoy valentine's day. Life is too short to argue. Just get your point across and move on. Goodnight.
#586 of 24726 ljflx
Feb 15, 2001 (12:29 am)
I agree that Lexus will do a LS500. I would too if I were them. Agreed. I agree with you on the DCX merger, but it will never work as far as Mercedes cars are concerned. They say the the 2 will never share platforms. I hope they don't. Ever. It's not about ownership of the company, I'm just saying the because Chrysler can't move enough 300M's doesn't mean Mercedes is going to be affected right away. Let me wrap the Lexus vs. Mercedes and other Euros like this. Lexus will always be the affordable car, the bargain. Mercedes and BMW will almost never be able to compete price for price with the Japanese. However for the true enthusiast BMW and Mercedes are the "better" cars. Performance, styling and design all go to the Germans. The more practical car is going to always be Japanese, but for anything over 30K I want some excitement and stimulation that only a European car can provide, and for me personally I can put up with a little less reliability in turn for more fun. It's cars like the S55 that make the case for the Euro brands. Nothing from Japan or America can substitue/compare. And Mercedes won't build a car that they are going to loose money on. They'll hike the price and sell less, they done it before, but never loose money on their core models (C,E,S, SL, CL,M). The A-Class might be a loosing sell but the cars we get here turn a profit, you can believe that.
It's not like the S-Class is junk or even remotely close to it. Believe it or not but their are S-Class owners that haven't had any problems, like there are probably some LS430 owners that didn't get a flawless car either. I believe Automobile did a long-term test of the S500 and their car didn't have a single malfunction. For me and quite a few others the Lexus dealership experience, customer service and coffin-like silence of their cars isn't enough to warrant driving such a blah, ho-hum car.
#587 of 24726 Merc1
Feb 15, 2001 (4:48 am)
Good way to end it. But tell me something. Why is MB making the C Class look so much, at least frontally where it is an exact match, like the S-Class? Big tactical mistake in my opinion. For its price the S has to be unique. If I just shelled out $80k plus for an S-500 (or $110k plus for a 600) I don't want to see a $32k or so C in my rearview mirror right after I drive out of the showroom or on the dealers lot for that matter. This is one of the reasons why I walked away from the S. The other is that I felt exactly the same way as Flint 350 wrote in his post. As well the real money for these cars is in the 45+ age bracket. With the bull market dying the younger crowd, who the S is now aimed at, may not have the financial ability to buy the S. The "easy money" days unfortunately are over. This is another reason why Lexus may make a big move at MB soon.
Personally I think the most beautiful MB is the E-Class. And maybe thats why I bought the LS430. The E is now MB's most Lexus like look. But it's far too small - the same size as a Camry at 189 inches long. If I'm MB I lenghthen that to 197 inches and make it my Lexus fighter. But the E is their bread and butter car so they may not have the gumption for that. I hope they don't change that to look like the S. Betting the ranch on one design would be very foolish.
But never say never about Toyota. I'm sure in the 1980's people would have said Toyota could never have built a Lexus. In 1990 they were probably saying Lexus would never survive. Could'nt have been more wrong. Ten years from now these two companies will still be duking it out but there is now a big difference than ten years ago. MB does not have much,if any, margin for error.
With that I'm through with this. Have a great day.
#588 of 24726 Now , Back to the Jaguar
Feb 15, 2001 (5:43 am)
Could one of you Jag owners tell me what you think to many miles on a 98 XJ8 would be? 50K or 60K ?
I also would like to know : when you buy the extended warranty does this add on to the cars mileage? Or is this like the Fords, when the warranty is just extended to that mileage on the warranty. For instance: If I buy a Jag with 40K mileage and purchase a 100K warranty does that mean I have a 140K warranty? or just an extra 60K
extention? Thanks for all your help. By the way, I have had a Benz, and 3 Lexi. If you get a good lexus dealer, its very hard to find better service.
#589 of 24726 sensible?
Feb 15, 2001 (5:47 am)
Sometimes I guess. I have always felt that Lexus has had a place in this group. Ten years ago when the original LS400 was introduced Car and Driver put it up against the 560SEL, 750iL, and a Bently Turbo R. The only major failing cited was that it was considerably smaller inside than the BMW and Merc. It fared quite well, and continues to do so. I agree with Merc1 about MB reliability. While the cars have changed, some say cheapened, I still find them extremely impressive. The S55 is agressive looking, fast and offers the best compromise between ride and handling on the planet. I personally found the cockpit of the 750 to be more driver oriented and the V12 for the price of a V8 MB made the sale. While in the same catagory, I really don't see any sporting intentions from the LS430. Now this strikes me as how MB used to be, silently competant, capable when pushed but not eager to do so. With its latest offerings MB has offered wonderful sport and AMG variants. These approach BMW for driving excitement (some say match, some say exceed), I think that is a great image builder for MB. While I wouldn't quite go so far as to say Lexus couldn't get in there, I firmly believe they will never top the heap for sporting nature in any of their lines. The IS300 and GS400 are awesome machines, but I think they also reflect Lexus' conservative side. They have yet to go all the way and offer manual transmissions like BMW. I think Merc1 had it right, Lexus will always be competative and the value leader. I think the premium charged by MB and BMW DOES buy you something tangible. Not heritage or status but a driving feel gleaned from years of experience designing autobahn ready cars. So if you want a dead reliable luxury car loaded with features and racing around is not on your agenda, the Lexus is a GREAT car. Personally I enjoy running my 750 HARD on occasion. It is practically impossible to drive this car slow, it is born to run. Not something said about the LS430. Unless you are considering the S55 I think the S430 and S500 fall in the middle. I was very impressed by the air suspension, it corners flat, maybe flatter than the BMW and has a great ride. I feel dang lucky to be able to legitimately shop these cars. They are all awesome, not a lemon in the bunch, just diffrent flavors.
Now to be a little less sensible and maybe a little antogonistic (all in fun). I can't stand the look of the Lexus. I know the Japanese have trouble being original with styling (at least original in a timeless sense) but the copy catting must be insulting to its buyers. I respect Toyota very much, but they will never surpass the Germans for top of the line luxo cars. Actually in my opinion they have fallen just short in every market vs. the Germans. They seem to stop shy of greatness and fall back on sterling reliability and service to close the gap. I call that CHICKEN! Leaders take risks, followers do just that, follow.
P.S. ljflx, don't give up, your comments are needed for balance. There are plenty of folks like you for which the Lexus is perfect.