Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#5790 of 24723 Not Hardly...
Jul 13, 2004 (2:26 am)
I'm done with the who buys what expecting this and that discussion. There is no way to know what every buyer expects etc. etc. That bit about the S600 is complete and utter nonsense. How in the world would know what most S600 owners do with their cars? I don't recall seeing anyone but the driver behind the wheel whenever I've seen a S600.
Secondly Mercedes-Benz was indeed the top car as far as reality goes. Rolls-Royce might have been the top "brand" name, but their cars were 20 years behind the average Mercedes up until Vickers finally developed a modern car in 1998 - the new Arnage and Silver Spur and even those cars would get their hood ornaments handed to them by a Mercedes S600 of the day. Back even further in the day the Mercedes 600 Pulman was also consider the best car in the world, over Rolls-Royce. I see nothing from Rolls that even competed with the legendary SL and SLRs of the 50's either.
Mercedes-Benz put everyone else on shelf for years as a mass manufacturer of quality cars until Toyota got stronger using their TPS system. This is common knowledge, look it up if you don't believe me. In mass market luxury cars MB was the undisputed leader. Period.
Only rich people who wouldn't even consider another brand of car thought a Rolls was a superior car to a Mercedes, everyone else knew better. Lexus folk knock Mercedes for riding on a past reputation and Rolls-Royce was more guilty of that than Mercedes has ever been. A superior car in a Rolls, I think not......it surely wasn't in the 70s, 80s or 90s. An 70s Rolls was a nicely leathered and wooded antique of a car and a complete mess, ditto for the 80s and 90s until 1998.
Mercedes reviving Maybach doesn't have anything to do with who lead in the past. Maybach is part of Mercedes' heritage anyway.
#5791 of 24723 Lexus not quite there.........
Jul 13, 2004 (7:57 am)
The ES300 is at such an extreme low of the luxury segment and the RX330 represents such a large portion of Lexus' sales that I can't totally relate to toyotas high-line brand as a top tier luxury make.
they're a tweener
#5792 of 24723 Re: Not Hardly... [merc1]
Jul 13, 2004 (8:13 am)
Good Post..If I read it right you are pointing out how Rolls survived on it's reputation for quality for 20 years or more then the torch was passed to Mercedes who had actually had built better quality cars for years and it just took the public years to catch up...
Now the torch (the public perception of quality and style and prestige) is passing from Mercedes to Lexus...
Jul 13, 2004 (8:35 am)
Lets try not to double post, mk? Are you saying that the C230 coupe isnt down market? Or how about the 325i, A4 1.8T, X-type 2.5? The ES prices above the Mercedes, and about the same as the Audi, BMW, and Jaguar. If you want to complain about where the ES comes from (and less than 25% of parts are shared) then Jaguar is just as guilty, if not more so. As for the RX, I dont see what the problem is there, either. Is the X3 going to ruin BMW as a top tier player? Lexus is a 15 year old company, and when you compare them to companies that have been around more than 100 years, I think they are doing pretty well for themselves. They've certainly shown Honda and Nissan how its done, and even die hard German buyers have to admit that Lexus has had a significant impact on how the Germans do business and design their cars. This SL will not have another 14 year cycle as the last one did. When Lexus fully establishes itself as a world market brand, their position should only go up.
Merc, I think 500hp is too much for a Lexus too. If there Germans werent in this all out war with each other to have their quad turbo V-12 be more powerful than the other guys quad turbo V-12, then Lexus wouldnt be building this car. I think Lexus is doing it because they have to offer something along the lines of the M, AMG, and S\RS cars to be taken seriously by enthusiasts.
#5795 of 24723 double posting
Jul 13, 2004 (8:42 am)
is easy to do because the software here is particularly, err ... *quirky* (to be polite!).
Hitting Refresh after posting means your message reposts and it's very easy to never notice it since the last post you saw was yours, and the last post you still see is yours although it is there again.
This is something that has bitten almost all of us at one time or another, and if it hasn't happened yet, it probably will eventually.
Rather than fuss at someone for double-posting, why not explain that the thing to do is to use the "Recent Msgs" link on the page bar to redisplay a page after making a post. And the other thing to do is to use the Delete button to remove any duplicates.
#5798 of 24723 Re: Lexus not quite there......... [livinbmw]
Jul 13, 2004 (9:16 am)
You do realize over 50% of BMW sales are made by their lowest product range-the 3-series? How do you see them as a top-tier brand?
#5799 of 24723 Re: livinbmw [lexusguy #5794]
Jul 13, 2004 (9:28 am)
Certainly, these entry level type models don't carry the same cache' as the "big dogs", but the lexus just doesn't seem to have the sturdiness or nimble driving performance as say a 3 series. Price is not the determining factor in my mind. And, true, the Jaguar is at least as guilty but probably more so. The RX330 carries a certain stigma to me because it is, in a way, a tall, fancy camry wagon. To have that vehicle as the anchor of their sales volume could mean that the brand is not having the over-all appeal that one might associate with a luxury buyer. Maybe, it's more of a market driven by Moms who don't want to look like moms in a minivan.