Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#5783 of 24726 smartkey and stuff....
Jul 12, 2004 (7:16 am)
As I remember it, Toyota displayed SmartKey technology in 2000 when the LS430 debuted, it just didn't make it to the US production version. I do remember reading somewhere that the Japanese Celsior has had it since then, anyone know this for sure? Either way, despite what some people say, I would hardly call Lexus introducing SmartKey technology 3 years after Benz as "copying" much like I wouldn't call adaptive headlights that BMW, Benz now use as "copying".
Most of the times different companies are innovating similar products simultaneously. This is a point soo many of you miss on a regular basis.
#5784 of 24726 Re: michael [lexusguy #5782]
Jul 12, 2004 (8:22 am)
That is exactly my point...You bought your Jag with certain expectations. It is tough to complain about it when you knew what to expect.
Having given further thought to Mercedes, I think I should amend my comments about people not having large expectations. There are probably many, if not most of It's new owners who buy it based on it's image of quality, they are surprised when they have problems and do rate it harshly in the survays...However that would also be true of all LS owners.
Jul 12, 2004 (10:31 am)
I still report the problems Ive had with my XKs in the CR survey though.
#5786 of 24726 Service Scenarios and Surveys
Jul 12, 2004 (6:38 pm)
Since we aren't privy to the raw data in the surveys, or the folks that are sending them in, or the professionals that are actually capable of interpreting them realistically and statistically for their paying customers (the car companies), almost any kind of commentary attempting to justify the results is pure guesswork.
For example, in an earlier post it was said:
"I mean isn't a Lexus buyer used to fast and convient service more apt to overlook a minor problem than a Benz buyer with the same minor problem who's dealer ticked him off by not handling it properly the first time or in a timely manner? This type of scenario doesn't make a difference? I think it does."
The implication is that this poster's scenario was possible and wasn't accounted for in the survey. And, that revealing of this insight should make everyone wonder if the surveys weren't somehow misleading us all.
The insight is speculative and unsupported by real information.
I haven't seen any survey data to indicate that Lexus service is fast or convenient in general, or faster and more convenient than other brands. If that's true that might be why they get kudos. But there is data that says that Lexus customes are more satisfied with their dealer experieces than Benz.
There's no data that I am aware of that says that makes the Lexus owners more or less likely to overlook a problem.
More importantly there's no data that I am aware of that says that Lexus and Benz have the same problems.
There is data that says Benz owners report between 2 and 3 times more problems. With the Poisson distribution that tends to apply to these kinds of defects, the probablities that Benz owners will see their dealers for problems many times during ownership is MUCH higher than Lexus owners.
With 2 to 3 times more problems, I would be surprised to find that these are the same kinds of problems as the Lexus owners experience, but happening at 2 or 3 times the frequency.
#5787 of 24726 lexusguy
Jul 12, 2004 (8:44 pm)
"I've always been curious about something, why cant the Germans manage to put in-dash CD changers in their cars? That is something that Nissan and Honda were doing 10 years ago, and yet just recently Audi managed to actually put one in a few of its cars, and cars that just came out like the Taureg still have it shoved in the trunk. Whats up with that?"
I'm going to surprise you and the board here, but Lenn probably remembers my positon on this from a few years back.........its pure arrogance and dissmissive behavior and/or the U.S. arms of the German luxury makers not having their parent's full attention in Germany. I've said for years they need to start tailoring their cars more to the US market when it comes to details like that.
Mercedes-Benz has one available in the 2003+ E-Class, but not on any other product. For years Mercedes-Benzes didn't have any in-dash CD players in any of their cars. The 2003 S-Class, CL and SL were the first ones to offer this along with the 2003 E-Class that has a single+ 6CD changer. Amazingly, astonshingly, help me out here...the 2004 C-Class, CLK and SLK still don't have an in-dash CD player of any type. The 2005 C-Class now has a single in-dash CD player. The 2005 CLK gets one as does the new 2005 SLK so Mercedes has managed to still come up behind the Japanese cars in this regard. Go figure.
Most BMWs have a single slot CD player now with a changer either in the glovebox or somewhere else, I honestly forget.
The most perplexing case is Audi. For 2004 all of their cars had a standard in-dash 6-disc CD player, but for 2005 they are going back in the glovebox! They did this is the name of style in the A8 I think and simply because the new A6's interior is so cluttered, a complete reversal of the 1998-2004 A6's interior.
The CL600 - "That much horsepower in a 2.5 ton car is just dangerous and stupid."
So when Lexus does it with the oh-so-often-hyped-upcoming LS500GT (Car and Driver says 500hp at least) it will be just as stupid and dangerous right? Where do we draw the line, 400, 500 or 600?? I guess wherever Lexus tops out at will be repectable and prudent. Please don't let me down by saying yes to that.
"merc1 - you read so much into the power issues. The comments always were that with cars that go 0-60 in 6 seconds on 290-320HP and with great torque - why is there a "real" need for anything more. We are talking main stream cars here not exotic specialty cars. We also were saying pour the investment money into things that produce a better and safer car rather than even more excess power. Need should have a higher priority than excess. In the big cities wherte 90% of these cars are sold you can't use that power very often anyway. What percent of MB's or BMW's sold do you think have 400-600HP. Maybe 5% and that is a real stretch. So to portray that power as brand representation is one heck of a statistical flaw."
Ok I'm trying to follow all of that double talk. First off, nobody said or portrayed that 400-600hp models represent anything even close to a majority of BMWs or Mercedes sold, where you got that from I don't know. Basically what you're saying otherwise is that 400+ hp is pretty much useless right? If so why is a rumored 500hp Lexus LS500 (a sedan not a specialty car) hyped like the second coming of the automobile? BTW, it doesn't take much money to develop more power in most cases. It is hardly a big resource drain.
" Now it's amazing to me to hear that the majority of Lexus buyers are people who can't wait for a survey to come in the mail and answer them."
Stay with me here, I meant on this board sir. Please lets not get into comments we wish we could take back from other posters. Where did anyone try to defeat or dispute Lexus' reliability? What one is allowed speculate in favor of Lexus and others aren't when it comes to how people fill out surveys? Come on now.
You mean to tell me they have both a radar-based and a laser-based cruise control system on offer at the same time? Didn't know that. Doesn't make much sense either if that is true, I don't know. I do know that a radar-based system is superior. You'll love this...on some Sundays I check out the lots here and the Lexus dealer here is moving to a new location (read bigger) and he has not a single LS430 or any type on his lot, not a one. Plenty of SC430s and GX470s but no LS430s. Business is good in luxurycarland.
#5788 of 24726 Lexusguy
Jul 12, 2004 (10:36 pm)
You mentioned the S65 AMG earlier, I'm not sure if that model is coming to the U.S. However the SL65 AMG has just been released. Price you ask.....$179,720. HP: 604, Torque: 738 lb-ft, gas guzzler tax: 3K. Pure, glorious excess.
You other Lexus guys will love this. The 2005 SL joins the 2003 S, CL, and E with a DVD-based Nav system. The 2005 C, SLK and CLK also get DVD navs. Gee whiz they're trying to get there.
Jul 13, 2004 (12:48 am)
On price alone certain Benz's owners would expect perfection and surely Mercedes has been seen as the top brand longer than anyone else.
Wrong on both counts. People pay big bucks and expect perfection in return for their money are buying Lexus. Over the past decade, Benz has become synonymous with big expensive liability (not reliability While buyers of an ES330 might be an upward mobile young professional who have to have the car for commute, the buyer of the top of the line S600 more often than not don't even drive the car themselves; some buy them just to have them sit in the garage.
BTw, Benz has hardly ever been the top brand. Rolls Royce command the top of the snob-appeal toten pole; that's why Benz has to revive the Maybach brand after half of century of hiatus.
#5790 of 24726 Not Hardly...
Jul 13, 2004 (1:26 am)
I'm done with the who buys what expecting this and that discussion. There is no way to know what every buyer expects etc. etc. That bit about the S600 is complete and utter nonsense. How in the world would know what most S600 owners do with their cars? I don't recall seeing anyone but the driver behind the wheel whenever I've seen a S600.
Secondly Mercedes-Benz was indeed the top car as far as reality goes. Rolls-Royce might have been the top "brand" name, but their cars were 20 years behind the average Mercedes up until Vickers finally developed a modern car in 1998 - the new Arnage and Silver Spur and even those cars would get their hood ornaments handed to them by a Mercedes S600 of the day. Back even further in the day the Mercedes 600 Pulman was also consider the best car in the world, over Rolls-Royce. I see nothing from Rolls that even competed with the legendary SL and SLRs of the 50's either.
Mercedes-Benz put everyone else on shelf for years as a mass manufacturer of quality cars until Toyota got stronger using their TPS system. This is common knowledge, look it up if you don't believe me. In mass market luxury cars MB was the undisputed leader. Period.
Only rich people who wouldn't even consider another brand of car thought a Rolls was a superior car to a Mercedes, everyone else knew better. Lexus folk knock Mercedes for riding on a past reputation and Rolls-Royce was more guilty of that than Mercedes has ever been. A superior car in a Rolls, I think not......it surely wasn't in the 70s, 80s or 90s. An 70s Rolls was a nicely leathered and wooded antique of a car and a complete mess, ditto for the 80s and 90s until 1998.
Mercedes reviving Maybach doesn't have anything to do with who lead in the past. Maybach is part of Mercedes' heritage anyway.
#5791 of 24726 Lexus not quite there.........
Jul 13, 2004 (6:57 am)
The ES300 is at such an extreme low of the luxury segment and the RX330 represents such a large portion of Lexus' sales that I can't totally relate to toyotas high-line brand as a top tier luxury make.
they're a tweener
#5792 of 24726 Re: Not Hardly... [merc1]
Jul 13, 2004 (7:13 am)
Good Post..If I read it right you are pointing out how Rolls survived on it's reputation for quality for 20 years or more then the torch was passed to Mercedes who had actually had built better quality cars for years and it just took the public years to catch up...
Now the torch (the public perception of quality and style and prestige) is passing from Mercedes to Lexus...