Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#5777 of 24723 designman
Jul 12, 2004 (6:09 am)
Can you imagine a world like this board where everyone criticized the guy who follows suit. There would never be improvement and there would never be any change at the top. There'd be stagnation as there was in the luxury segment until Lexus came along and caused everyone to scramble. The hardcore German enthusiasts have a real hard time with that last sentence. But the real buyers are so glad there is so much choice now.
merc1 - you read so much into the power issues. The comments always were that with cars that go 0-60 in 6 seconds on 290-320HP and with great torque - why is there a "real" need for anything more. We are talking main stream cars here not exotic specialty cars. We also were saying pour the investment money into things that produce a better and safer car rather than even more excess power. Need should have a higher priority than excess. In the big cities wherte 90% of these cars are sold you can't use that power very often anyway. What percent of MB's or BMW's sold do you think have 400-600HP. Maybe 5% and that is a real stretch. So to portray that power as brand representation is one heck of a statistical flaw.
Lexus reliability - Now it's amazing to me to hear that the majority of Lexus buyers are people who can't wait for a survey to come in the mail and answer them. Merc1, my friend that's a comment that I'd wish I could take back if I were you. The Lexus stellar reliability level is what it is - the envy of the industry. Just accept it and move on rather than trying to defeat it with silly comments that make you look bad. Today if I were an MB buyer I would fully expect reliability to be a problem no matter what car I bought. On the other hand I'd be a lot harder on Lexus than I would be on MB because I'd be expecting perfection or near perfection. I expected it in 1995 and got it with my first LS (which had over 250k miles on it when I last checked with my buddy who bought the car at lease end). I expected it in 1998 with 2 vehicles and got it, in 2001 with 3 and got it and I expect it now and have gotten it so far. Most - as in 90+% of Lexus buyers expect the same and thus will naturallly be more prone. not less, to report anything wrong. Common sense rules here.
Brightness - great points.
Lexusguy - The RX was a major Lexus success and continues to be the class definer and leader. I tend to take it for granted and forget how it led the development of a whole new segment.
#5778 of 24723 Re: [sv7887] [michael_mattox #5748] [merc1]
Jul 12, 2004 (7:15 am)
Lexus does have a radar based cruse as well as Laser based, I have the laser based system and it works great.
You really should go drive a new LS430 ultra
Jul 12, 2004 (7:22 am)
I really dont understand such cars as the S65. There was a review of the Mazda 3, it may have even been on this site, where the writer was talking about racing a CL600 through some back roads, and the CL would roar past on the straights only to be beaten repeatedly by the Mazda at every corner. That much horsepower in a 2.5 ton car is just dangerous and stupid.
Jul 12, 2004 (7:22 am)
I don't recall anyone saying 400hp is far to dangerous or far too much?...
If Lexus does it, the hybrid will make it as economical to run as an underpowered cheap Mercedes.
Jul 12, 2004 (7:36 am)
I can only speak for myself..But..If I had done my research and purchased an S Class Sedan, I would know I should expect electrical problems my expectations would be relatively low....
On the other hand I bought an LS and expect the car to be completely trouble free and expect to get GREAT SERVICE in the unlikely event anything does happen to it...MY EXPECTATIONS ARE VERY HIGH...I would whine like crazy on every survay I would find if my LS EVER left me stranded anywhere.
Jul 12, 2004 (8:15 am)
I can see your point. To a certian extent I'm willing to put up with my XKRs frequent problems because its a Jag and thats to be expected. Week long service department stays are also tbe because parts have to be imported from England frequently. If my LS ever needed to sit in the service department for a week or more, I wouldnt be to happy about it. Then again, I dont depend on my XK as a daily driver, so its not as much of a hassle when it has issues.
#5783 of 24723 smartkey and stuff....
Jul 12, 2004 (8:16 am)
As I remember it, Toyota displayed SmartKey technology in 2000 when the LS430 debuted, it just didn't make it to the US production version. I do remember reading somewhere that the Japanese Celsior has had it since then, anyone know this for sure? Either way, despite what some people say, I would hardly call Lexus introducing SmartKey technology 3 years after Benz as "copying" much like I wouldn't call adaptive headlights that BMW, Benz now use as "copying".
Most of the times different companies are innovating similar products simultaneously. This is a point soo many of you miss on a regular basis.
#5784 of 24723 Re: michael [lexusguy #5782]
Jul 12, 2004 (9:22 am)
That is exactly my point...You bought your Jag with certain expectations. It is tough to complain about it when you knew what to expect.
Having given further thought to Mercedes, I think I should amend my comments about people not having large expectations. There are probably many, if not most of It's new owners who buy it based on it's image of quality, they are surprised when they have problems and do rate it harshly in the survays...However that would also be true of all LS owners.
Jul 12, 2004 (11:31 am)
I still report the problems Ive had with my XKs in the CR survey though.
#5786 of 24723 Service Scenarios and Surveys
Jul 12, 2004 (7:38 pm)
Since we aren't privy to the raw data in the surveys, or the folks that are sending them in, or the professionals that are actually capable of interpreting them realistically and statistically for their paying customers (the car companies), almost any kind of commentary attempting to justify the results is pure guesswork.
For example, in an earlier post it was said:
"I mean isn't a Lexus buyer used to fast and convient service more apt to overlook a minor problem than a Benz buyer with the same minor problem who's dealer ticked him off by not handling it properly the first time or in a timely manner? This type of scenario doesn't make a difference? I think it does."
The implication is that this poster's scenario was possible and wasn't accounted for in the survey. And, that revealing of this insight should make everyone wonder if the surveys weren't somehow misleading us all.
The insight is speculative and unsupported by real information.
I haven't seen any survey data to indicate that Lexus service is fast or convenient in general, or faster and more convenient than other brands. If that's true that might be why they get kudos. But there is data that says that Lexus customes are more satisfied with their dealer experieces than Benz.
There's no data that I am aware of that says that makes the Lexus owners more or less likely to overlook a problem.
More importantly there's no data that I am aware of that says that Lexus and Benz have the same problems.
There is data that says Benz owners report between 2 and 3 times more problems. With the Poisson distribution that tends to apply to these kinds of defects, the probablities that Benz owners will see their dealers for problems many times during ownership is MUCH higher than Lexus owners.
With 2 to 3 times more problems, I would be surprised to find that these are the same kinds of problems as the Lexus owners experience, but happening at 2 or 3 times the frequency.