Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Jul 11, 2004 (11:06 pm)
". All three of them just integrate some third party turning headlights. MB's long delay between announcement to actual car on the lot is indicative its problems."
What delay are you talking about? All three companies brought this tech out for the 2004 MY.
"The JDP survey is based on the count of number of problems per thousand vehicles, not silly questions like "are you happy with your new car?" both JDP and CR give out detailed questionaires in categories as to where the problems are. It's not about whether their leather has a blotch or panel gap size or any such subjective measures; a transmission/engine/electronics problem is a problem regardless what car they are dealing with...."
I believe that is what I stated. I wasn't speaking about the Mini - cupholders and Hummer - gas mileage stuff. The dependability survey is where the real meat is.
It is true that nowadays most of the electrical innovation comes from suppliers, but when Mercedes did the really basic innovating they became famous for they did most of it them themselves, like in the area of safety. Mercedes and Bosch today usually work 50/50 on things, both sending some of their engineers to each other's companies to work on an idea so it isn't all supplier based in the least. Not sure what Toyota does.
Jul 11, 2004 (11:18 pm)
"When people buy a Mercedes-Benz they expect perfection and only that, thus when a Benz has a problem (however minor or slight) it gets dinged on these surveys."
I really don't agree with this either, that somehow MB owners are more sensitive to problems.
In fact, if there were a bias (which I really don't think there is), it would be AGAINST Lexus. Sure, MB is still king of the hill, but when it comes to reliability, Lexus is the generally known king. And it is becoming more generally known that MB's have reliability problems. Many people buy Lexus's because of their reputation as trouble-free cars. Hence, a Lexus owner may be even more prone to reporting something minor as a "problem". In any case, I don't think this bias is enough to make a statistical difference.
"Far too much power than anyone needs and is far to dangerous."
Well, I don't know about anyone else in this board, but nothing about luxury cars has anything to do with "need." Why draw the line at 400hp? Why not 250hp? Are our lives so much better because we can go 0 to 60 in 5.5 seconds, rather than 6.5 seconds? I have no problems with MB and BMW making 400hp cars, and I got no problems with Lexus making them either.
I remember the first LS400 had 250hp. Now, 250hp is what many midsize family sedans have. If 400hp is going to be the norm among ultra lux cars, then by all means...
Jul 11, 2004 (11:24 pm)
400hp seems paltry compared to the 612hp/738 torque S65. I can't even imagine what the power delivery feels like in that beast. Not that I'll ever get to drive one. =)
Jul 11, 2004 (11:27 pm)
Totally disagree with that. On price alone certain Benz's owners would expect perfection and surely Mercedes has been seen as the top brand longer than anyone else. Mercedes sells more 50K+ cars than anyone else and some of those buyers expectations are probably higher than a person that just worked their way up to an ES330. I also think Lexus' service practices alone would make a Lexus owner less apt to report a problem that a dealership snubbed in a timely fashion with very little if any inconvience to the owner. All types of things weigh in when people fill out these things. I'd guess we'd have to conduct another live survey to see which theory is right??
That said, a bias againt Lexus on a reliability survey? That is far to surreal to me to even entertain that thought. They're they survey king and have by far (on these boards) the most survey chasers of any brand ever devised. This group lives to fill out surveys.
Jul 11, 2004 (11:43 pm)
Your notions sound more surreal to me.
Yes, I believe that someone who buys an ES330 has more expectations when it comes to RELIABILITY, than someone who buys a C-class or E-class (which make up the bulk of MB sales), BECAUSE of Lexus's greater reputation for reliability than MB.
Jul 11, 2004 (11:50 pm)
I say the same thing so we'll just have to agree to disagree. There is no way I'll buy any bias against Lexus on a survey when the majority of these buyers live for surveys. If the bulk of MB buyers survey responses came from C and E Class buyers then the S and SL wouldn't be mentioned, but they are, especially the S. I think these buyers expectations are higher than the RX and ES buyers, and are on par with the LS.
Jul 11, 2004 (11:50 pm)
Same with someone buying an LS or an S class. I'd guess that someone buying an LS is more discriminating about reliability than someone buying an S class. Even though the S costs more, the LS has a higher reputation, and hence higher expectations, when it comes to reliability.
Jul 11, 2004 (11:55 pm)
Even if that were completely true in every case of each buyer, where does the service factor come in? I mean isn't a Lexus buyer used to fast and convient service more apt to overlook a minor problem than a Benz buyer with the same minor problem who's dealer ticked him off by not handling it properly the first time or in a timely manner? This type of scenario doesn't make a difference? I think it does.
Jul 11, 2004 (11:56 pm)
"There is no way I'll buy any bias against Lexus on a survey when the majority of these buyers live for surveys."
Ahh... I can picture them now. All those Lexus owners waiting by their mailboxes to see when the the JDpower or CR survey would come.
Yep, we'll just have to agree to disagree. As I said, I don't think any such bias will be statistically significant anyway.
Jul 11, 2004 (11:58 pm)
I can indeed picture some of the survey worshipers on Edmunds awaiting them for real.